Bolivian X Blue Ram cross?

[dax29]

Has anyone attempted or given consideration to crossing a Bolivian ram with a Blue ram? They are close enough that I think it may work. If a cross could be made, then a hardier, more colorful ram could be produced. The resulting progeny may likely be infertile though.

Any thoughts?

[Toirtis]

Originally Posted by dax29

Has anyone attempted or given consideration to crossing a Bolivian ram with a Blue ram?

Probably, but hybrids are typically frowned upon.

They are close enough that I think it may work.

Probably would, and likely has.

If a cross could be made, then a hardier, more colorful ram could be produced.

Not necessarily....and they may not be marketable...I don't know any aquarists that you could even give one to.

The resulting progeny may likely be infertile though.

May be, but no guarantees....hybrids are bad enough, but fertile hybrids pose a whole new bunch of issues.

[dax29]

Why are hybrids frowned upon? I guess, like other pets, people like to know what they are getting and generally pay more for pure bred animals. Is there another issue as to why fish hybrids are disliked?

[mattrox]

Pure bred dogs are all the same species. The breed is only personal preference. Interspecies hybrids of wild varieties of animal are frowned upon because it destrys the unique genetics of the species and IF they can breed, this genetic change can be passed on and can never be reversed and the consequences are potentially disastrous. It is a completely different game than just pure bred/mixed breed domestic or farm animals.

[mobiusnu]

Originally Posted by mattrox

Interspecies hybrids of wild varieties of animal are frowned upon because it destrys the unique genetics of the species

But so what? What's so laudable about the unique genetics of the species? Why shouldn't we also value the unique genetics of hybrids while we're busy praising unique things?

and IF they can breed, this genetic change can be passed on and can never be reversed and the consequences are potentially disastrous.

Yeah, and they're also potentially hamless, and they're also potentially beneficial.

It is a completely different game than just pure bred/mixed breed domestic or farm animals.

How? And if so, why should we care? You can't just go around asserting that "hybrids are bad because I think so" and expect people to believe you without good reasons. Right now, all it seems you have is some sort of traditionalist purity aesthetic into which you're tapping for all your support.

[Toirtis]

One serious problem is that non-sterile hybrids can eventually begin to pollute pure genetic strains by irresponsible distribution of fry.....this becomes more of an issue with threatened species where the sole existing strains may be within private ownership.

[dax29]

Wow! Okay! I have a better feel for the situation now. I see the point made about the dogs being the same species and all and I understand that. However, I'm not sure certain fish can be considered "wild" if they are raised by individuals at home or on fish farms in southeast Asia somewhere. The fact that thay are being "domestically reared" means that the "genetically pure" species can be left alone in the wild, without being captured for the fish trade. People that breed the same species and allow the genetics to deteriorate in that species is misleading and bad too. I just can't make myself believe that producing a hybrid ram, that COULD be superior to both Bolivians and blues is that bad of a thing. I respect the opinions that you have shared with me on this. I'm not planning on carrying out a breeding program or anything. I don't sell fish. I was just curious.

[mobiusnu]

Originally Posted by Toirtis

One serious problem is that non-sterile hybrids can eventually begin to pollute pure genetic strains by irresponsible distribution of fry.....this becomes more of an issue with threatened species where the sole existing strains may be within private ownership.

Pollute? Irresponsible? That's a lot of value-laden terms. What makes it irresponsible and pollution to merely produce a hybrid?

I'll grant that there may be exceptions to be made in the case of one wishing to preserve a threatened species. But we're talking specifically about Rams here. And we're talking about the hobby in general, not only threatened species, which compose a very small percentage of hobby fish.

What I don't see is why we should consider hybridization as pollution or the breach of some sort of responsibility. Does it cause the fish pain? Does it harm people? Or does it simply violate your sense of what the hobby should be about?

[dax29]

Now. On another note. I wonder if one could select for and breed blue rams that are hardier for the aquarium trade. I'd like to see both gold and blue rams reared in harder water, selected for their hardiness and survivability, and hopefully the aesthetics will follow them. I purchased so many blue rams that I couldn't keep alive. They were dying when I purchased them. The [acronym:f921f9eda6="Local Fish Store"]lfs[/acronym:f921f9eda6] store buys them from different people and sometimes they all die and sometimes they do okay. I'll never buy another one myself. I do like my Bolivian rams, they just don't have the color of the blues.

[bzbee]

I guess if the fish were naturally co-located to begin, and the hybrid would have occurred in the wild anyway, I don't have a problem with it. Natural selection would decide which traits would survive. Endler's Livebearers come to mind when I read Toirtis' post. The natural habitat of the livebearer's was industrialized and the wild stock is on the verge of extinction. The species has been kept "pure" in the hopes that one day it can be reintroduced in the wild. In the early days when John Endler first found them, it was thought that hybrids were infertile, but now it seems that under somewhat artificial conditions, like if there are no other females other than guppies, they will breed. It would be somewhat "irresponsible" to introduce the hybrid back into the wild without a better understanding of whether anything else beyond physical traits has changed, eg aggression, whether they eat fry,etc.