Bolivians Rams...Dare I?

[Allivymar]

Ok, so I wandered into the icky LFS today and lo and behold, they have a tank full of lovely Bolivian Rams. I'm REALLY tempted, although I have no idea where I'd put them LOL. I've another week and a half before the new angel is out of QT, so no guarantee they'll be there. But, if they are, I want em. So heres my question:

How does one tell male from female? They have 2 smaller, brighter rams with really long fins tipped in red, and a bunch of larger duller colored rams (still pretty tho) with shorter fins. I assume the more colorful ones are males, and the duller the females, but I thought the males were same size or larger then the females? How else can I tell (if I get them, I'd like to breed em)?

 

[TankGirl]

I am definitely thinking you should go for it (as if I would say anything else ). I think you have pH of 7 out of the tap, right? I have always loved them but I have had poor results with my tap water. I have read that the males have slightly longer filaments on their fins, but they take a while to reach maturity so it might be hard to tell. I have also heard about conspecific aggression, but that may be just during spawning. If (I mean when) you get them be sure and get your trusty digicam out so we can see

 

[Madame_X]

Um, Alli? Yes, yes, yes!!

I can't say enough about how fun my Bolivian Rams are. They are so entertaining. I could watch them for hours...

If only they were easily sexed, I would buy two females (as I'm 99% certain that I have two males right now). Unfortunately, everything I have had suggests they are very difficult to sex until they're mature. I wouldn't worry too much about the male-to-male aggression, though. Although mine do struggle over territory, they don't bite each other. They literally "ram" into each other. They've never hurt one another, and its actually somewhat entertaining to watch.

What can I say? They're my favorite fish!

 

[Allivymar]

LOL ok...I been thinking about them ALL evening. Doing google searches on em didn't help

I need to do a major rethink about my tanks then. I've got 2 up n running:
The planted 10g, with 3 dwarf gouramis, neon/cards and otos. There will be 6 cherry shrimp and 2 bamboo shrimp moving in some time this week.

The 55g with the angels, loaches and the plec.

And I've one angel in my 8g hex QT tank thats only been there since Sat, and came from a tank with a fish with ich. Else I'd chance moving him in with the rest of the angels; hes a healthy pig otherwise.

I do have another 10g; I need to grab a new filter, heater etc, but I COULD set that up for the rams. Thing is, I have no place to QT em if I do that, and if I use it for QT, I've no place to put them after. I think the planted tank would actually be the best home for em, but that means finding a place for the 3 dwarf gouramis...I could put em in the currently unused 10g, but not till after the rams are out of QT, and I'd need to set the tank up for em with substrate, plants, lighting in that little period of time between moving the rams out and the gouramis in.

Aauugghh! LOL Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[BrianNY]

Sounds like you need another tank!!

 

[Allivymar]

LOL I HAVE another tank. Its being set up for SW.

My prob is I need ROOM for another tank LOL

 

[Sati]

More tanks, more tanks, more tanks! I bought another one this weekend, heh. I don't know much about rams but isn't the 10g too small for them?

 

[Allivymar]

Its pushing it, but because its well planted, and with the gouramis out theres a pretty low bioload, it should be ok. I did my research *grin* and it appears 10g is the absolute smallest recommended, and it must be well planted with hiding spaces/caves. Oooo! I have one of those *grin*

 

[Sati]

Well go for it then :] Those are gorgeous fish. And there is *always* room! :]

 

[ScottS]

ok...I been thinking about them ALL evening. Doing google searches on em didn't help

I can sympathize with you. I've searched all over for info on these and curviceps and haven't found much, let alone a source for buying a pair. Good photos are hard to come by, especially for the curviceps.

 

[TankGirl]

I keep a dwarf gourami with my angel, and they are fine together if you want to try them in the 55, but I know you have a growing angel collection in there, so it might be a bit tricky.

That's all there is to it. You need another tank. Okay then, that's solved

 

[Allivymar]

LOL The prob isn't a new tank! I'd buy one in a minute. The prob is WHERE am I gonna put it?

This apt is an attic apt in an old victorian. All the outside facing walls angle in at 30 degrees 2 feet from the floor, so all the basic stuff is on the completely vertical walls, like the radiators and the doors and the bookshelves (I have a zillion books) and yeah, the TV LOL...and only 2 walls per room are vertical so it doesn't leave me much space.

I DO have the 25g sitting there empty on its new stand, but I really wanted to go SW with it...Damn...decisions decisions LOL

 

[Madame_X]

Sorry, I gotta say it...

That 25 would look great planted with a couple of Bolivian Rams.

Then maybe some apistos would top it off nicely...

 

[medge00]

Bolivian rams are pretty awesome. They really do need those places to hide though. When I had them, they would rarely come up to the top, even to feed and only came out of the plants at night when the house is quiet (7 roomies... its a busy place and too scary for the ram). Now I have an altispinosa, which I believe is very similar, but not quite the same thing, a blue ram and a gold ram. They do tend to fall to disease easily so if you put some in that QT tank, be sure its clear of ich. I just lost my female ram to ich actually. they have a ton of personality. you'll love them.

 

[yhbae]

If sexing Bolivian is anything like Blue Rams, good luck...

I looked at colors, looked at the length of the fins, the size and the dot patterns on their bodies, and got what I thought was one male and one female. (Picked out of a specimen of at least 40).

The one I thought would be a female turned out to be a male as well... Apparently, the only reliable indicator for Blue Rams at least is to look at the underbelly region when they are mature - females show pink color while male doesn't.

So meanwhile, I have one super aggressive and colorful male that dominates the tank and one super ugly and small male that gets chased around by the other one all the time...

Grrr...

 

[Madame_X]

Bolivian rams are pretty awesome. They really do need those places to hide though. When I had them, they would rarely come up to the top, even to feed and only came out of the plants at night when the house is quiet (7 roomies... its a busy place and too scary for the ram). Now I have an altispinosa, which I believe is very similar, but not quite the same thing, a blue ram and a gold ram. They do tend to fall to disease easily so if you put some in that QT tank, be sure its clear of ich. I just lost my female ram to ich actually. they have a ton of personality. you'll love them.

Altispinosas are Bolivian Rams (microgeophagus altispinosa). Some places call them Ruby Clown cichlids.

I didn't have good luck with my Gold Rams, they were not very healthy when I got them. However, the Bolivian Rams were in the same tank and made it through whatever it was just fine. They are much hardier than the German Rams (gold or blue).

 

[Voodoo Chilli]

Allivymar-

I got the Dwarf Cichlid Atlas out to see if there's anything additional I could pass on to you:

Secondary sexual characteristics are slight. Males grow slightly larger and when compared side-by-side, females appear a bit stouter and more rounded through the belly region. Males frequently have longer dorsal fin membranes and elongated ventral and caudal fins. However, the fin-related traits can occur in both sexes.

Mikrogeophagus altispinosa is a comparatively undemanding dwarf cichlid. While organic pollutants negatively affect them, water chemistry is of secondary importance. The tank should be spacious and decorated with shelters. They prefer a fine-medium substrate.

Temp: 20-29C
Max size: 9 cm (males); 8 cm (females)

 

[Allivymar]

Heh ok, lets confuse things even more.

I went to the lfs with your list of traits Voodoo, and guess what. Theres a mix of wild and domesticated rams in there. Augh LOL Its impossible to compare em all and figure it out.

So I have him holding them for me; I'll grab 4 or 5 tomorrow and hope for the best. Btw, is $9 each a lot? I have no idea...

 

[Madame_X]

$9 is about what I paid for mine, Alli.

So... if you're picking up 4 or 5, is it safe to assume they're going in the 25 gallon tank?

What fun that will be! I only have two in my 30 but because of its odd shape, I don't know if I want to put anymore in (unless, of course, I could be sure they were female!). I like the cube but I wish I had a bigger tank for rams.

Hmm... Christmas IS coming.

 

[yhbae]

Madame_X, according to your criteria for determining the female, one of my male passes your test...

As mentioned before, the only reliable way that I have learned so far is to wait until they are mature, and the females will develop pink bellies...

Another interesting thing I have learned from the LFS is that the suppliers in South East Asia deliverately limits the sex to the regions to ensure that hobbists like us cannot find both sexes easily. I'm not sure if there is any truth in this, but certainly out of 40 that they have, NONE of them turned out to be female at the end... Hmm...