Decision: keep inherited tank communal, or go cichlid

[BriLandy]

Hi all,

I purchased a 65 gallon planted, freshwater tank that is an established community tank (48x12.5"). It has an assortment of random fish, including a clown loach that is not suitable for the tank. I'm debating if I should donate the existing fish that I cannot rehome to my 10 or 29 gallon and turn it into a more aggressive cichlid tank, or if I should keep the fish that are appropriate for the tank and create a better community setting.

The only cichlids that I've had are keyholes. I'm interested in more aggressive cichlids but I'm not extremely knowledgeable. I'd like to know if they're compatable with a dirt or sand substrate and live plants, what varieties of cichlid are best for somebody who is new to the species, and what your overall thoughts of pros/cons of each situation are.

I'd love to own rams but I hear they are finicky. Thanks!

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Hi there!

There are several options:
1) Keep it planted and go with dwarf cichlids(Blue Rams, Bolivian Rams, Electric Blue Acaras, Apistos, angelfish or kribs. Not all of these work together, but most do) this would be a more peaceful set up, and you could add other fish as well(Tetras, cories, livebearers, etc).

2)You could go with some bigger South American fish (just one or two 8" fish) they would not work with plants though.

3)African lake cichlids, this the more aggressive kind you were talking about. For this setup, you'd want hard/alkaline water(high ph/Kh), no plants(fish will eat them, however some plants will work like Anubis), and sand. and you'd have a few species of cichlids and a pleco or two. There are LOTS of kinds so big selection!

Hope that gives you some ideas, I can give you more information of you narrow it down a bit....


Pros
1) Community tank so much more species can be mixed.

2)Large fish can get to know you and have a real personality

3)These breed and care for their young(most of them)

Cons:
1)

2) just a few fish, not too much action...

3) Can't mix very many fish, just a few species.

 

[KKAY27]

I have a african cichlid tank and I love them but honestly I like community tanks a little more! It's more peaceful and you don't have to worry about aggression! And I like being able to have more of a variety of fish!

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[BriLandy]

Thank you both for the input. I definitely want to keep it planted, and I do like having a variety of fish species. I think I'll keep it a community tank and donate some of the fish that aren't a good match for the tank.

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Cool! What do you currently have in the tank?

 

[Tbox]

+1 on community tanks. There's like a Brazilian options!

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[ktomminello]

Info on rams!!!!

Looking through the postings no one has raised the red flag on keeping rams alive successfully, soooooo.....


Rams need near perfect water chemistry (nitrites WILL kill them) that only a fully established tank can provide. They also do not do well in water below 78°F, which many community fish can't tolerate the excessive temperatures well for long periods of time. They are also intolerant of hard water, most can't even tolerate neutral conditions- if your ph is above 6.5 they will not color up and their life expectancy will be very short. They are obnoxious to newly planted plants. Finally- they don't like each other, at all.... Though, unless you have a true pair, they rarely ever even nip a fin. So long as you keep only one sex with many hiding places and a couple schools of dithers you should be able to keep about 6-8 of them.

All of that being said- I love my rams!!! I have 4 females in my 30g heavily planted community tank and they are one of the highlights of my experience in this hobby.

If this list of restrictions puts a damper on your happiness of having a dwarf cichlid tank there a couple off the top of my head that I can think of that might be better matches-

Apistogramma cacatouides
Kribensis
Keyhole cichlids
Electric blue acara
Angels (leopoldi angels are around 3 inches and have a TON of fight with a tiny mouth)


Hope this helps

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Looking through the postings no one has raised the red flag on keeping rams alive successfully, soooooo.....





Rams need near perfect water chemistry (nitrites WILL kill them) that only a fully established tank can provide. They also do not do well in water below 78°F, which many community fish can't tolerate the excessive temperatures well for long periods of time. They are also intolerant of hard water, most can't even tolerate neutral conditions- if your ph is above 6.5 they will not color up and their life expectancy will be very short. They are obnoxious to newly planted plants. Finally- they don't like each other, at all.... Though, unless you have a true pair, they rarely ever even nip a fin. So long as you keep only one sex with many hiding places and a couple schools of dithers you should be able to keep about 6-8 of them.

.....no one raised the red flag as that's SLIGHTLY exaggerated.

If you have bad stock to begin with they won't do well, no matter what you do. Unfortunately it's hard to find good Rams. Yunite on eBay/Aquabid and his own website has great Rams with great genes at great prices.

Nitrites will kill any fish if exposes to it for longer periods.

My Rams do just fine at a ph of 7, they can go up to 7.2. It's the Kh and Gh that needs to be low.

Again I disagree, they do just fine together, the males are not TOO frisky with the females, I have never had any issues with a male killing another ram!

Please research and know what you're talking about before posting advice.

 

[ktomminello]

.....no one raised the red flag as that's SLIGHTLY exaggerated.

If you have bad stock to begin with they won't do well, no matter what you do. Unfortunately it's hard to find good Rams. Yunite on eBay/Aquabid and his own website has great Rams with great genes at great prices.

Nitrites will kill any fish if exposes to it for longer periods.

My Rams do just fine at a ph of 7, they can go up to 7.2. It's the Kh and Gh that needs to be low.

Again I disagree, they do just fine together, the males are not TOO frisky with the females, I have never had any issues with a male killing another ram!

Please research and know what you're talking about before posting advice.

Never said they would kill each other- I said they don't get along. From my experience you are probably one of the only people that I have ever heard of having success with non Bolivian rams in neutral water!!!

I have been breeding and raising gbr and Gold rams for the past 2 years and am ready to pick up my first true pair of electric blue rams.

I have heard MANY accounts of Bolivian rams being kept in water with high gH/ph, however, which is why I made note excluding them from my warning.

I honestly think that it is waaaaaaay more irresponsible to encourage someone to invest in a fish that aren't cheap based on a solo observation from one person when every experience I have had and others in my position have had points the complete opposite direction.

There is a reason why gbr/golden/ebr are labeled 'sensitive' 'touchy' and 'difficult'. They are all the same exact fish bred for color variations and because of the need to inbreed to develop color mutations their natural immunity is reduced.

Much like I would never advise anyone to house 3 male betta in a 20b tank just because I have successfully done it, I will not stop warning people about getting rams because I love the breed enough to not want people to hate their first experience with them.

"Haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate hate"

 

[BriLandy]

A taylor swift quote really just happened! I would go for Bolivian rams, if I ever do end up getting some. I've heard good and bad things about rams, but not as exaggerated as ktomminello. However, I appreciate that input as well.

The tank is crazy. I donated about 12 fish today and still need to donate or rehome more. They just don't all go together and a bunch of schooling fish are singular

There is a sweet little dwarf honey gourami. I didn't even recognize her as gourami at first, because some fish nipped her dorsal fin almost completely gone, and both of her antenna like fins are almost gone. She is timid, completely the opposite of my powder blue. I felt bad so I put her in my 10 gallon with the other gourami and platies, away from any potentially aggressive fish. I'll have to keep an eye out for any jerks in the 65 gallon.

 

[ktomminello]

Singular schoolers look so lonely. I may be a slight alarmist on 1 issue, but I think it's from my geological location where water chemistry varies greatly from one town to another and prices for these breeds are around $80/pair..... I am lucky- I have an LLC breeding fish and can get wholesale deals through distributors now, but when I first started it would have been devastating to me to lose a pair at that cost.

Honestly my favorite first time community cichlid has to be the apisto, a close second is the krib. They have been bred in the trade for long enough to work out the sensitivity issues and can usually be found for pretty cheap (sometimes free or trade) from local sources.

What fish are you left with? Anything you're interested in stocking as a school?

 

[mikem691]

Never said they would kill each other- I said they don't get along. From my experience you are probably one of the only people that I have ever heard of having success with non Bolivian rams in neutral water!!!

I have been breeding and raising gbr and Gold rams for the past 2 years and am ready to pick up my first true pair of electric blue rams.

I have heard MANY accounts of Bolivian rams being kept in water with high gH/ph, however, which is why I made note excluding them from my warning.

I honestly think that it is waaaaaaay more irresponsible to encourage someone to invest in a fish that aren't cheap based on a solo observation from one person when every experience I have had and others in my position have had points the complete opposite direction.

There is a reason why gbr/golden/ebr are labeled 'sensitive' 'touchy' and 'difficult'. They are all the same exact fish bred for color variations and because of the need to inbreed to develop color mutations their natural immunity is reduced.

Much like I would never advise anyone to house 3 male betta in a 20b tank just because I have successfully done it, I will not stop warning people about getting rams because I love the breed enough to not want people to hate their first experience with them.

"Haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate hate"

I have had GBR breed in a PH of 8.2.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Never said they would kill each other- I said they don't get along. From my experience you are probably one of the only people that I have ever heard of having success with non Bolivian rams in neutral water!!!



I have been breeding and raising gbr and Gold rams for the past 2 years and am ready to pick up my first true pair of electric blue rams.



I have heard MANY accounts of Bolivian rams being kept in water with high gH/ph, however, which is why I made note excluding them from my warning.



I honestly think that it is waaaaaaay more irresponsible to encourage someone to invest in a fish that aren't cheap based on a solo observation from one person when every experience I have had and others in my position have had points the complete opposite direction.



There is a reason why gbr/golden/ebr are labeled 'sensitive' 'touchy' and 'difficult'. They are all the same exact fish bred for color variations and because of the need to inbreed to develop color mutations their natural immunity is reduced.



Much like I would never advise anyone to house 3 male betta in a 20b tank just because I have successfully done it, I will not stop warning people about getting rams because I love the breed enough to not want people to hate their first experience with them.



"Haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate hate"

If you buy quality stock, that are tank raised, the pH will be all but irrelevant. My old LFS breed all of their own ramirezi in neutral water, including their electric blues, which survived a trip with me from Michigan to Maryland, a brief stay with me, and another trip to their forever home with my friend. Ramirezi are not as fragile as everyone claims them to be, the problem is that they are getting poorly bred stock. Good breeders do still exist, you just have to look in the right places.

Also, breeds do not apply to fish. I'm a stickler with this term being used, as it is not a true descriptive word for fish. These are species, and then color morphs (morphs) of said species. May seem nit picky to some, but it truly is not a proper term in this hobby. Sorry if I come off as rude, not my intention


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[Tropical Aquarist]

If you buy quality stock, that are tank raised, the pH will be all but irrelevant. My old LFS breed all of their own ramirezi in neutral water, including their electric blues, which survived a trip with me from Michigan to Maryland, a brief stay with me, and another trip to their forever home with my friend. Ramirezi are not as fragile as everyone claims them to be, the problem is that they are getting poorly bred stock. Good breeders do still exist, you just have to look in the right places.

Also, breeds do not apply to fish. I'm a stickler with this term being used, as it is not a true descriptive word for fish. These are species, and then color morphs (morphs) of said species. May seem nit picky to some, but it truly is not a proper term in this hobby. Sorry if I come off as rude, not my intention


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Exactly what I meant! It's true for all fish, if they are bad stock/bad gene pool, they won't make it no matter how you keep them.

 

[Freakgecko91]

Looking through the postings no one has raised the red flag on keeping rams alive successfully, soooooo.....





Rams need near perfect water chemistry (nitrites WILL kill them) that only a fully established tank can provide. They also do not do well in water below 78°F, which many community fish can't tolerate the excessive temperatures well for long periods of time. They are also intolerant of hard water, most can't even tolerate neutral conditions- if your ph is above 6.5 they will not color up and their life expectancy will be very short. They are obnoxious to newly planted plants. Finally- they don't like each other, at all.... Though, unless you have a true pair, they rarely ever even nip a fin. So long as you keep only one sex with many hiding places and a couple schools of dithers you should be able to keep about 6-8 of them.



All of that being said- I love my rams!!! I have 4 females in my 30g heavily planted community tank and they are one of the highlights of my experience in this hobby.



If this list of restrictions puts a damper on your happiness of having a dwarf cichlid tank there a couple off the top of my head that I can think of that might be better matches-



Apistogramma cacatouides

Kribensis

Keyhole cichlids

Electric blue acara

Angels (leopoldi angels are around 3 inches and have a TON of fight with a tiny mouth)





Hope this helps

Also, electric blue acara are not a dwarf cichlid, as they are a color morph of aequidens pulcher, the blue acara. These can be quite feisty at times and need to be with robust tank mates in my opinions

Also, Leopoldi Angels are not an easy thing to come by. I've rarely, if ever, seen them offered for sale.

Keyholes technically aren't a dwarf cichlid either, as males can grow over the 4" mark.

?


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[Tropical Aquarist]

Also, electric blue acara are not a dwarf cichlid, as they are a color morph of aequidens pulcher, the blue acara. These can be quite feisty at times and need to be with robust tank mates in my opinions

Also, Leopoldi Angels are not an easy thing to come by. I've rarely, if ever, seen them offered for sale.

Keyholes technically aren't a dwarf cichlid either, as males can grow over the 4" mark.

?


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Considering it's a 65 gal, all 3 are still fine, even if they're not "Dwarfs"....

 

[Freakgecko91]

Considering it's a 65 gal, all 3 are still fine, even if they're not "Dwarfs"....

I never once said anything about tank size....but ok


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[Tropical Aquarist]

I never once said anything about tank size....but ok


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I meant the OP said it was a 65gal, and the guy above mentioned those as stocking suggestions, and I said "they'd still be fine" even if not dwarfs....

 

[BriLandy]

I do have a pair of keyhole cichlids in my 29 gallon tank. Despite mixed reviews, I went ahead and got a pair of beautiful German Blue rams for the 65 gallon. I couldn't find any Bolivians at local stores. I donated all of the remaining fish except for a school of diamond tetras. I ended up getting the GBRs, 5 sterbai cory cats, 5 otocinclus cats. There are the 4 diamond tetras as well - they must be popular right now because I couldn't find any in Stock at any LFSs. I'll add a couple more diamonds when I can find them.

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Sounds good! Do you have a picture of your tank? I'd love to see it!