discus help

[wright4lfe]

alright, now that my 180 is up and running i have a 48gl bowfront sitting empty. i've been looking at a few different types of fish, but for sure doing a species tank. my girlfriend wants me to do puffers, but i am very interested in doing either discus or a brackish tank...

any hints on discus before i get knee deep in gravel and plants?

 

[cheezysquirrelz]

Dont discus need extra perfect water conditions? I know they are VERY expensive. Maybe you could get cichlids or go with your puffer/brackish idea. Or even make a saltwater tank. Or try something wierd like knifefish or flounders or an oscar or an elephantnose or a small kind of eel. Or you could even make it a reptile tank!!!!!! Oh or turtle tank. Maybe even frogs.

 

[Todd2]

Discus are beautiful fish. They are a lot of work though. WCs everyday or close to it. Most people with them use RO water. If you want to go with them a great site with a good forum and tons of info is www.simplydiscus.com.

 

[BrianNY]

Discus adapt very easily to most water conditions as long as the water is VERY clean. They do require frequent water changes for optimum growth and health. Yep, they are more work than any other FW fish but IMO they are also more rewarding.

RO water is only needed if you want to breed them, and then only if your tap water is hard. I have 7 discus tanks and 3 spawning pairs and have never used RO water.

 

[wright4lfe]

i have pretty good water, almost perfect to be honest. how would that work in the equation that is discus keeping?

i'm hearing 10gl/per discus is about what you need to go with, so if i have a 48gl bowfront would it be ok to put 4-5 discuss in the tank? or is that overstocking the tank. the filtration is 2 emp 400's.

 

[wright4lfe]

i checked out simplydiscus.com and they're saying 33-50% water changes every couple days. i honestly don't have the time to do changes like that.

i do 50% water changes weekly for my o's, in all honesty, is that enough for 4-5 discus or not? whats your opinion brianny

 

[BrianNY]

Well I don't want to discourage you wright4lfe. If discus aren't kept in the cleanest of conditions they will stop eating, grow dark and die. I'm sure you've discus these skinny dark discus at an lfs or two where they don't change enough water.

I have a water change routine and now it's as common to me as brushing my teeth. The right equipment helps make things easier and therefore a python speeds things up and saves your back from lugging buckets. Truth is, if you aren't willing to change at least a third of the water every other day, wipe down the inside of the tank (discus produce a heavy slime coat), every few days, and clean your filters weekly, then discus aren't for you.

If you're willing to make an effort, a tank of discus is the most rewarding
experience you can have as an aquarist. It's a challenge yes. But the satisfaction of knowing what it takes to succeed makes it worth it. JMHO

 

[wright4lfe]

ok, let me get this straight....

i do 50% water changes in a 180gl tank with 4 oscars, 1jd and 1 large pleco, i have near perfect readings every time, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 7.0 ph, maintained over a months long period, yet that isn't good enough for discus? are discus messier than Oscars and plecos? do they produce more waste? because unless they are and do, i'm pretty sure i could maintain solid water readings with discus.

because the way everyone one talks about these fish its like all they do is poop and pee constantly. knowing how much food to add to a tank greatly affects the water params as well, do all of you just throw in food and hope it gets eaten? none of what i'm reading is making sense.

also, all joking aside, what is the point of having a filter if you are changing out the water 30% every couple days? i mean, seriously, you don't even need a filter if you're vacuuming/water changing every other day. wouldn't it make sense to pay more and and have more filtration than is necessary to lighten the work load?

and if i come off a bit bitter/sarcastic/mean its because i'm hearing one thing on one forum, then hearing someone say something completely different on another.

 

[Luke Anderson]

The reason why discus generally need so many frequent water changes is because:
1. They are more delicate than a lot of other aquarium fish, and just cannot handle contaminants in the water. Even if there is low to nil nitrate, there can still be other untestable chemicals and dissolved organics in the water, which need to be diluted often.
2. Especially with younger discus, they need to be fed OFTEN and lots, so more food = more waste=dirty water that needs to be diluted.


without biological filtration, even if you are doing daily large water changes there would be traces of toxic ammonia in the water, poinsoning your fish.


If you are set on keeping discus, but want to keep the workload small, stock very lightly, like keep one discus to a minimum of 20 gallons or more of water.

 

[wright4lfe]

thanks for the answer luke....

i think i may just sell my 48gl bowfront, buy a 90gl bowfront and stock it with 5 discus

 

[BrianNY]

If you start with young discus wright4lfe stay with the 48. It'll be easier (less volume of water).

When I first started I had 6 juveniles in a 29g. Changed half the water everyday. They grew like sprouts. I still them . It wasn't long before I moved them to a 55g and they continued to thrive and grow.

Discus aren't fragile Luke. Just the opposite. It takes a while to kill one and they let you know they are stressed long before that happens. They do come down with some unique diseases and seem more susceptible to gill flukes and tapeworms than most other fish but all of that can be dealt with proper feeding, QT and water changes.

As I said earlier, discus produce a heavy slime coat. They feed their young from the slime on their backs. This slime seems to get all over everything and is a breeding ground for bacteria. It dissipates in the water column and the more water you change, the healthier they will be.

 

[Luke Anderson]

I should have worded myself differently...

As in fragile I mean, sensitive, this doesnt mean they are killed off any easier than many other aquarium kept fish, but they show their distress much quicker than most other fish.

If you were to start out with a 90 gallon tank, in the early stages you would not have to do many water changes at all, so therefore it could be easier this way, at least imo.

 

[wright4lfe]

well, i'm not looking for them to grow as fast as possible or get as big as soon as possible. people who mass feed their fish like i'm reading on a few of these forums are in my opinion putting their interests over those of the fish. fish don't eat 6-8 vitamin and protein enriched meals every day, and they don't get 50% water changes everyday. i understand that they come from the amazon, but even the amazon has periods of no rainfall.

so, if i can handle raising 4 oscars, 1 j.d. and 1 sailfin pleco, keeping water params almost perfect over the course of the last couple years in heavily planted tanks, what would keep me from being able to successfully raise/maintain discus?

 

[BrianNY]

To answer your last question wright4lfe, nothing. In fact I can almost assure you of success. I'm chuckling a bit. The reason is I had the same mindset as you when I started with discus. Did I ever fight the w/c concept. Mostly because I just didn't want to buy into it.

Prior to the discus, I had been breeding Angels and Severums and thought I was the master of SA cichlids. I began my foray with 2 juveniles in a bare bottom 29g (purchased at an lfs), and the learning began. When these fish started showing signs of stress, someone on the internet put me in touch with a local breeder.

When I got to his hatchery I was awestruck. He had 25 breeding pair of the largest most colorful discus I had ever seen. I'm guessing he had 30 grow out tanks between 75 and 125 gallons. He was a fountain of information and the source for vitually all of my 49 current discus. Even witnessing his success, I had a hard time convincing myself that discus required water changes. But the reality was, I didn't want to devote the time.

Now I must tell you the truth. I'm NO EXPERT! I still have more questions than answers. I've 4 spawning pairs and I've yet to get any fry past the free swimming stage for more than a week. I still have fish that fall ill for what seems no apparent reason. I still ask questions and seek advice from people that are more experienced than I.

I know I'm giving you alot of background here but I think YOU'RE worth it. I came to love and respect the discus as a species. Each one seems to have its own personalitiy. Spending more time with this fish has given me a sense of what each individual likes and dislikes. Guess what? Once I got the bug, I found the the time.
And, it didn't stop me from running my business, playing golf 3 to 4 times a week, spending time with my family and friends, and doing all of the other things that make up my life. Get the point?

 

[wright4lfe]

ok, first off, thank you for all the info. unlike some, i read everyones posts and appreciate it all...

but here is what i think is the main difference i have with the majority of the discus owners i've been talking with is that; i have no intention of breeding discus, nor am i interested in growing them out as soon as possible, which seems to be the general consensus of just about everyone i've spoken with to date.

i only want to buy 5-7 discus, put them in a 90gl bowfront and enjoy them. not breed them, not worry about them growing as soon as possible, not laying eggs, etc. i find most of the sites i've checked out automatically jump to the conclusion that because i want to own discus, i want what they want. which is untrue. i could probably make some nice pocket change if i made a point of trying to raise the fry every time my oscars laid eggs and had fry, but thats not why i bought the fish in the first place. i bought them to enjoy them and watch them interact, not force them to grow as fast as possible, live in an enviroment completely unlike their natural habitat or have as many groups of fry as possible...

 

[BrianNY]

I think the people giving you information make certain assumptions wright4lfe. This includes me.

1. Discus aren't cheap. Most people won't lay out in excess of $100 per fish for an adult (let alone 5 or 6 of them), and end up buying younger fish which can still run in the $50 range. That's why we talk about growing out.

2. It's assumed that if you want to keep discus, you want to know how to provide optimal conditions for their well being. Not merely maintain the fish at some minimal level. No experienced discus keeper wants to put either you or your fish in that position.

That being said, here's the answer you're looking for. It might be possible to keep 5 or 6 ADULT discus in a HEAVILY planted tank while doing weekly 50% water changes. The plants are required to use up toxins which have a cumulative effect in the water column and substrate. The filter hasn't been invented which can do this as effectively as plants.

If you start with juveniles, even though you aren't interested in growing them out quickly, if any survive at all you will end up with severely stunted discus that may or may not ever color up. Discus stop growing at about 1 1/2 years old. You'll never be able to feed the amount required for them to put on size and have any kind of decent water quality.

In addition younger fish tend to have weaker immune systems and are much more susceptible to stress. They will stress in either of 2 ways or both.

1. Gill Flukes - Almost every discus sold is infected to some degree. When a discus is fighting less than ideal water quality it can't cope with the flukes at the same time. You'll see rapid gill movement, breathing from one gill and eventually distended gills.

2. Internal bacterial infections - Discus have such delicate digestive systems. In less than perfect water, juveniles especially don't have the ability to fight this off. The fish will stop eating, turn dark and die.

These are not oscars or jds. Even the most experienced discus keepers run into problems. The causes are many but the problems are usually solved by improving the quality/cleanliness of the water and tank.

You might be able to do this for several weeks or even months, but it's like tempting fate. Unless you're extremely skillful and lucky you're apt to end up with very sick or dead fish. Understand?

 

[wright4lfe]

just a quick question for you...

what do you think about this website and some of the information provided in it?

http://freshaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://members.aol.com/bgdiscus/

do you think their info is false or misleading?

 

[Guest]

When I first started researching Discus I was using the net a lot. One thing I learned was theres a bunch of boguss floating around. It almost kept me from trying Discus. Am I ever glad I did try. I like them so much, I'm currently building a 100-150g planted Discus tank. Might even take a shot at trying to breed a pair in the future.

The best advice I can give is narrow your scoop. Get a couple of books from knowledgeable Discus keepers. One thing I learned was not to read ever single opinion or post on Discus forums. Find a few knowledgable people on Simply or DAAH and read thier post and advice. Theres a wealth of knowledge out there. One just has to wade through a bunch of BS and sort it out.

I know exactly how you feel. I got so tired of the "My way is the only way to keep Discus" or the "BB VS Biotope" debate. Yes, juvies should be grown out in a BB with frequent WC. Yes, a healthy planted Discus tank is certainly possible. To keep Discus, one most have an understanding of what thier needs are and be willing to provide those needs.

I could'nt agree more with Brian. With proper equipment (python or a pump) WCs go rather quickly. Heck, I look forward to WC's and caring for my fish. It's my relaxation. I work 12 hrs a day with rotating shifts between nights and days every ten weeks. Not the best schedule, but no matter how tired I am. I ALWAYS do my WC's on the Discus tank.

Discus are a wonderful and fascinating fish to care for. I commend you on your research. Continue researching. The more you learn now, the more successful you'll be when you do get the fish. If you have any questions or are confussed. Don't be affraid to ask.

 

[BrianNY]

Excellent post Mojo. I think the reason there is so much debate re: discus and what will or won't work has to do with ppls personal experiences, and the diversity of conditions and genetics. What works for me might not work for you and visa versa.

The discus has no peer in the FW world. Perhaps it's the majestic beauty, perhaps it's the challenge that makes the due diligence required to keep this fish so rewarding. My experience is it doesn't take alot for something to adversely affect these fish. Your experience may be just the opposite.

 

[wright4lfe]

i have to say i agree with the water changes, to a point. i don't plan on breeding ever, but i do have a python cause i've got big oscars/jack dempseys/plecos (its a necessity on a 180gl) so i could definately see doing definately see doing like 3 or 4 water changes a week on my discus tank, i would just need to make sure that i plan everything accordingly.

thanks for your time fellas, i appreciate it.