GBR Noobness

[black hills tj]

Hello everyone,

I just setup a 20g tank(as some of you may very well know). Current inhabitants include 6 von rio tetras and 2 gold barbs. I have some anacharis and hornwort in there. I made some slate rock caves and a formation. I'm adding driftwood as soon as I find a nice piece that I like. The ultimate plan for this tank is to have a breeding pair of gbr's in this tank. I've heard gbr's are very picky about there water. Recently my water has sat around 8-8.4 ph, and I'm unsure of how hard/soft it is. What are the ideal gbr water conditions? I plan on adding a small pleco of some sort and about 5 julii cories. These will not bother the gbr's at all right? Also, if I'm lucky enough to get a pair of gbr's to spawn, would they be just fine left in the tank with the mentioned inhabitants? Should I get 2 males and 2 females and throw them in and let em pair up on their own? Does a 20g tall have room for 2 pairs of gbr with the other fish I mentioned? or should I just get 1 male and 1 female.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Jchillin]

You could probably get GBR's to acclimate to your water but breeding them in it will not be possible. To find out what your kh is, you will need a kh test kit. Considering you are at @8.2, I would guess that it's >6kdh, which is very hard for breeding them.

If you still want them for the community tank, I would take the gold barbs out of the equation. You may also have a problem with finding dwarf pleco's (bristlenoses, rubberlip, etc) thriving in that tank as well.

 

[bs6749]

Okay...lots of stuff here.

First of all, GBR's do NOT need pristine water conditions. People on here have reported breeding them in hard water with a pH of 8.2-8.4 rather than the soft, acidic (pH of around 6.0-6.5) water that is "ideal". If you get a wild pair, I would HIGHLY suggest the lower pH and softer water because that is basically what they lived in before heading to the lfs. If you get a pair locally, I would recommend that the water is on the softer side and is on the acidic/neutral side.

Harder water may prevent osmosis from occuring in the fry development when they are eggs. The higher concentration of ions outside of the eggs will prevent water from diffusing into the eggs and they will not be able to develop...that is the theory that I have heard.

The pH should be on the acidic/neutral side because it helps to prevent fungusing of the eggs. Most fungus will like more basic water from what I have heard and will not grow in acidic conditions. I don't know if this is true as I haven't done any experiments to test this but I have seen a test that showed egg hatching rate at different pH levels and acidic water (around 6.0 I believe) yielded about a 90% hatch out rate each time.

As far as the pleco and cories go, I simply say no based on my experience. I have seen my pleco eat some of the eggs from a spawn and it was too big for the rams to chase away. If it were me I would not add any other fish to the tank if you are thinking on seriously breeding GBR's. If you want some additional fish for looks/appeal I think the tetras and barbs would be ok. I have seen my glowlight tetras all attack a spawn before so they WILL go for the eggs if they are hungry and are lucky enough to find them.

As for 2 pairs in a 20 gallon tall, you may be able to get away with it. I have 4 pair in my 55 gallon tank and it can get a little testy in there some times but for the most part they do well. I only would have put 3 pair in there but the guy I bought them from sent me an extra pair and I wasn't going to get rid of one pair because I liked them so much. They have spawned MANY times for me but have never successfully raised fry in the 55. That may be due to stress from other GBR's and other fish which causes them to eat the eggs. I remove the eggs when I see them spawn and place them in a 10 gallon tank that I have setup just for that purpose. You may want to think about having one as well just because your rams may not be good parents.

If you are seriuos about this I would get two males and two females and put them in the tank. I would wait for a pair to form and then see how they act with the others. If two pairs form see how they interact. You may have to remove one pair to get them to successfully raise any fry. Sure you could always leave the two pair in there if they are spawning and remove the eggs, but I would MUCH rather see the parents raise the little ones themselves.

I would have the tank moderately planted, (mine love laying on broad leaved plants such as swords, anubias, and this one plant that I used to have) place some flat pieces of slate on top ot the substrate (easy removal of eggs if laid on them) and get some driftwood as you have mentioned (mine laid on driftwood a good half dozen times). The goal should be to make them feel comfortable enough to lay eggs while making it easy for you to remove the eggs if the parents aren't able to raise the fry themselves.

One last thing. The GBR's that ARE picky about water conditions are the ones that are doomed from the start. They often come from Asian fish farms where they are mass produced and are subjected to hormones that make them color up more so that they are more appealing to the customers. They tend to have long, stretched out bodies and fins that are longer and pointy. I suggest getting them from a breeder if you can or looking on www.aquabid.com where I got mine from.

 

[Jchillin]

A bit of clarification:

First of all, GBR's do NOT need pristine water conditions.

Pristine refers to water quality, not the ph, kh or gh of the water. It basically means clean water, nothing more. All fish deserve pristine water. I do know of members here who have achieved success in keeping GBR's in hard water, which is why I mentioned it.

Since we know that breeding in the higher ph levels is difficult due to the chemistry...

Harder water may prevent osmosis from occuring in the fry development when they are eggs. The higher concentration of ions outside of the eggs will prevent water from diffusing into the eggs and they will not be able to develop...that is the theory that I have heard.

The pH should be on the acidic/neutral side because it helps to prevent fungusing of the eggs. Most fungus will like more basic water from what I have heard and will not grow in acidic conditions. I don't know if this is true as I haven't done any experiments to test this but I have seen a test that showed egg hatching rate at different pH levels and acidic water (around 6.0 I believe) yielded about a 90% hatch out rate each time.

...this would seem confusing at best:

People on here have reported breeding them in hard water with a pH of 8.2-8.4 rather than the soft, acidic (pH of around 6.0-6.5) water that is "ideal".

The last thing we need to do is confuse a newbie who is trying to obtain the best advice possible.

 

[black hills tj]

You could probably get GBR's to acclimate to your water but breeding them in it will not be possible. To find out what your kh is, you will need a kh test kit. Considering you are at @8.2, I would guess that it's >6kdh, which is very hard for breeding them.

If you still want them for the community tank, I would take the gold barbs out of the equation. You may also have a problem with finding dwarf pleco's (bristlenoses, rubberlip, etc) thriving in that tank as well.

Can you suggest a quality KH test kit and where to find one? I've checked local shops and haven't found one.

How can I safely, naturally(no chemistry) lower the ph of my tank?

Why should I remove the gold barbs?

I know that pleco's will outgrow the tank. With my dad's 29, he normally purchases one when it is real small, then the LFS we usually purchase from lets him swap it out for a new small one when it grows too large.

What are ideal breeding conditions for GBR's?

I'm setting up a 10g QT tank with a sponge filter so I can use that if I ever do get any fry. I have read up a little bit on egg layers in general and have placed some loose slate in the tank as well so I can simply move that to the QT if they lay on it. Driftwood should be here soon as well.

I have some plants on their way as we speak to add to the 20g and my 29g from a couple different members here on AA(such kind folk you all are).

 

[Jchillin]

Can you suggest a quality KH test kit and where to find one? I've checked local shops and haven't found one.

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals is probably available at your LFS, if not ordering online is the next best option.

How can I safely, naturally(no chemistry) lower the ph of my tank?

Most would suggest using DI water (distilled water). This can get expensive. Using other methods to do this usually don't work well over time and your water will constantly jump from one ph level to another.

What are ideal breeding conditions for GBR's?

The "ideal" condition is a ph of 6.0 to 6.4, with a kh of @ 2-3 dkh. As mentioned, you don't need to hit that target exactly but problems begin somewhere around 7.4.

I have read up a little bit on egg layers in general and have placed some loose slate in the tank as well so I can simply move that to the QT if they lay on it. Driftwood should be here soon as well.

Slate is good but GBR's, along with other earth moving cichlids, may decide to ignore it and dig a pit in the gravel. A ceramic pot cave is even better.

 

[black hills tj]

What are the odds that, if I get my conditions right and am lucky enough to get them to spawn, that they will raise fry succesfully considering the other tankmates?

 

[severum mama]

Hey Mike, I think JC may have advised you to get rid of the gold barbs due to aggression- many species of barbs have a tendency to nip at other fish. However, I've kept that kind of barb and that has not been my experience with them. I found them to be really peaceful. But, you never know- every fish is different. Also, the barbs are schoolers, so you would need to add more to make them more comfortable. This is your real problem, IMO, because it will really push your stocking, and thus make it more difficult to maintain the very clean water that GBRs need to thrive. I agree about the pleco, too- 20 gallons is pretty small even for a small species of pleco, and as you know they are messy. Plus, they will happily eat GBR eggs.

Also, I really doubt that you'll be successful keeping 2 pairs in a 20 high. Maybe it would work in a 20 long, but any 20 gallon tank just won't really afford the fish that much room to claim territories. I think it will be stressful for them.

 

[black hills tj]

I just tested the tanks water and came up with a ph of 8.2. Are there any ways to lower PH other than using distilled water or chems? I know chems will only decrease the stability of the water, and if I used distilled water I'd have to get some every time I did a pwc.

I have the 6 von rios and 2 gold barbs, what if I added 2 more gold barbs when a LFS gets more in? I only got the 2 because my dad really liked them but they only had 2. He has no room in his 29g so I said its fine if I put them in my 20g. Would the be enough to keep them happy without overloading the bioload? I am running an AC 50 on the tank so I think I'd be okay. A LFS is supposed to get julii cories and GBR's this friday. I know I'll be picking up the cories, but do you think the GBR's would be alright with my tank the way it is now?

 

[Jchillin]

In most cases, the fry or eggs will be eaten by the other tankmates and, oddly enough, the parents themselves if they feel threatened or the batch isn't to their liking. It takes a couple of tries until they feel they've gotten it right.

Now just to tweak this a bit, SA cichlids usually feel more comfortable spawning when there are dither fish lurking about. Dithers are usually tetras and barbs (though I would refrain from the barbs). So therein lies a very delicate balancing act. Having a breeding tank that you can remove eggs and parents to usually works.

 

[Jchillin]

Posted just behind your last one.

The only method of softening hard water is by use peat and sometimes driftwood. As I mentioned earlier, lowering your ph via natural methods is not easy to do and often leads to ph fluctuations. Read this article for details: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=40

IMO, leaving out the barbs and reducing the number of cories will be ok.

 

[bs6749]

I just want to point out before typing a response that my initial post was started before you had posted Jchillin and I can see that it looks "hostile" but that was not the intent.

Pristine refers to water quality, not the ph, kh or gh of the water. It basically means clean water, nothing more. All fish deserve pristine water. I do know of members here who have achieved success in keeping GBR's in hard water, which is why I mentioned it.

Since we know that breeding in the higher ph levels is difficult due to the chemistry...

When I think of "pristine" water I think about pure water with NOTHING in it and a pH of 7.0 (which is neutral at 25 degrees Celsius). Obviously nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, and other things are going to effect the health of all things in the tank and some are more succeptible than others. I think it is fair to say that GBR's are an average fish when it comes to being effected by these chemicals. They do not require under 0 ppm of each of these compounds to be present in the tank in order to survive. I have had my GBR's in nitrate 10ppm for two weeks before with no losses in life or color (which would show stress) for example.

When you said KEEPING GBR's in non-pristine conditions, were you inferring that breeding wouldn't take place? I know of at least 3 people off hand that HAVE had GBR's breed in a pH of above 8.0 with hard water.

Harder water may prevent osmosis from occuring in the fry development when they are eggs. The higher concentration of ions outside of the eggs will prevent water from diffusing into the eggs and they will not be able to develop...that is the theory that I have heard.

The pH should be on the acidic/neutral side because it helps to prevent fungusing of the eggs. Most fungus will like more basic water from what I have heard and will not grow in acidic conditions. I don't know if this is true as I haven't done any experiments to test this but I have seen a test that showed egg hatching rate at different pH levels and acidic water (around 6.0 I believe) yielded about a 90% hatch out rate each time.

...this would seem confusing at best:

People on here have reported breeding them in hard water with a pH of 8.2-8.4 rather than the soft, acidic (pH of around 6.0-6.5) water that is "ideal".

The last thing we need to do is confuse a newbie who is trying to obtain the best advice possible.[/quote]

Were you confused by my statement? I was saying that GBR's SHOULD be kept in soft water of an acidc pH IDEALLY...BUT breeding HAS taken place in basic water that is on the hard side. I feel that it was the best advice. Telling someone that it will only happen in soft, acidic water is surely only telling half of the story. Mine first started spawning in water with a pH of 7.4 and TDS reading at 175ppm. That seems to be close to the realm of acidic but is far from soft. My point being that GBR's will spawn in basic water with hard water.

 

[bs6749]

Posted just behind your last one.

The only method of softening hard water is by use peat and sometimes driftwood. As I mentioned earlier, lowering your ph via natural methods is not easy to do and often leads to ph fluctuations. Read this article for details: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=40

IMO, leaving out the barbs and reducing the number of cories will be ok.

Peat and driftwood will lower the pH of the water, they will not chage the "softness/hardness" (GH) of the water.