Hybrids

[HUKIT]

Once included, they can be taught to understand the issues, and once they understand, they will empathize. If purists like you and I continue to be snobs, we will continue to drive away these folks and further endanger pure lines.

Then I would love to hear what your being nice argument has done for the cichlid world as a whole, people are going to do what they want whether I'm nice to them or not. It's not like they are going change their minds about creating hybrids for money or pleasure based on my tone, thats a silly argument.

First of all, the edition I have of Ad Koning's Book of Cichlids and All the Other Fish of Lake Malawi has pictures of adult hybrid Maylandia greshakei/M. zebra, which I remember off the top of my head, and probly others if I went through it. All natural hybrids are not removed immediately from the wild, some do survive, reproduce and alter the next generation. You want another example? I spent my undergrad years studying mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus)/ white tail deer (O. virginianus) hybrids in the southern Platte River basin of Wyoming.

I will agree as the Rift lakes is a whole seperate entity when it comes to hybridization, but on a aquarium forum discussing deer is way off topic...what's next the mule? That one didn't do you any credit.

As for the whole "Frankenfish" argument", you make my entire argument. That kind of self-righteous indignation, the air of superiority and condescension that springs from your statement, is why we have trouble getting through to people, why they turn a deaf ear. They don't hear the consequences of their actions, they hear a bunch of static, they hear they are being put down, they hear they are being belittled and considered as less than human, as inferior beings, they hear that they don't count. That attitude, being perceived as cichlid snobs, is more damaging than I ever realized Ya catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Same as above comments, but again I'd love to hear how the flies with honey argument is helping though? Plus questioning my opinions and methods with academic logic trying to trigger a emotional response is rather insulting to say the least.

These abominations are already in the public's hands and we are not going to keep them out or remove them from there! What are you doing to change that ignorant public?

Publicly educating people on the damage this can and is causing to our hobby, maybe going about it in a different matter but the message is clearly the same. I am a member of ACA and GGCA and I'm extremeley involved in both clubs with efforts to preserve this great passion we call our hobby, so I'd pose the same question to you, what are YOU doing?

Believe it or not, HUKIT, I'm on yer side. I've just seen the light...

There simply is no light to be seen. So what if the ACA sanctions hybrids or not how will that improve the cause? It won't because someone will see a flowerhorn and say oh that is pretty, then here we go again. There is a reason why such organizations have discrimated against hybrids for such a long time, because the impact they are causing. Persevering through educational programs like most efforts to protect wildlife is the key, not simply saying well its happening whether we like it or not so lets embrace it.

I'd love to argue this all day but as I've said before this makes for a heavily one sided debate as there are near zero benefits for hybids and dozens against them. So discussing the tone of education is also pointless, there are many different techniques for educating people as I have mine and you have yours.

 

[5x5]

It's refreshing to see the hybrid discussion go from "are hybrids good" to "hybrids are bad, what should we do about them?". I agree the first argument is heavily one sided, but the second isn't. This is a strategy discussion, not a mission/vision argument.

If sounds like both Wy and Hukit agree that hybrids should either cease to exist or at a bare minimum be clearly delineated from pure lines. The tactics need to take into account the motivation of the hybrid offenders in order to be successful.

I personally think its a combination of lack of education, non-malicious inquisitiveness and malicious intent to maximize profit. There could be more that I am missing.

The first two can be partial addressed with education, but there will be mistakes and non-compliance. You may make a substantial improvement, but how many mistakes would it take to damage a species line?

I know this is a pipe dream and largely impractical, but i'd almost like to see a decentralized body enacted with mission of keeping strains pure and available to hobbyist, so if people mess up the strains further on the local scene, the pure strains would still be preserved and available,

 

[Gulfstream]

Like a seed bank!

 

[5x5]

Like a seed bank!

After reading the description of the seed bank, yes that is eerily similar to what I was describing in purpose.

 

[Wyomingite]

It's refreshing to see the hybrid discussion go from "are hybrids good" to "hybrids are bad, what should we do about them?". I agree the first argument is heavily one sided, but the second isn't. This is a strategy discussion, not a mission/vision argument.

If sounds like both Wy and Hukit agree that hybrids should either cease to exist or at a bare minimum be clearly delineated from pure lines. The tactics need to take into account the motivation of the hybrid offenders in order to be successful.

I personally think its a combination of lack of education, non-malicious inquisitiveness and malicious intent to maximize profit. There could be more that I am missing.

The first two can be partial addressed with education, but there will be mistakes and non-compliance. You may make a substantial improvement, but how many mistakes would it take to damage a species line?

I know this is a pipe dream and largely impractical, but i'd almost like to see a decentralized body enacted with mission of keeping strains pure and available to hobbyist, so if people mess up the strains further on the local scene, the pure strains would still be preserved and available,

That is a fair summation, 5x5. No idea is perfect. Unfortunately, a forum is truly not an adequate media to convey and discuss ideas or strategies. Nuances of conversation are missed and reading between the lines can lead to misinterpretation, potentially leading to conflict. Reading HUKIT's replies, I realize several instances where my point was not conveyed accurately, as I intended, and realized several differences in our perspectives that were not immediately obvious. For one, I tend to look at this from an Old World perspective versus a New World perspective, as my primary interest is in Africans and the few Asian cichlid species. Not that I'm ignorant 'bout the issues with American cichlids, but I should have realized that would be HUKIT's POV.

@ HUKIT: My hand's out in peace, with respect. Regardless of differences, we share passion for this issue. You and I will not solve this problem on this discussion board. My apologies if ya felt I slighted yer accomplishments; that was by no means my intent. My own contributions have been limited to a few small communities in the Outback of the United States. Children no longer occupy 75% of my free time and I have thought of becoming involved on a larger scale, but really have no idea where to start. Yer link to the CARES program in your signature gave me ideas when I joined this forum, so maybe there. Regardless, until next time...

Ivan

 

[HUKIT]

@ HUKIT: My hand's out in peace, with respect.

Ivan

No worries as I harbor no grudges, my apologies if things went south. I am very passionate with regards to aquaria, especially this topic specifically. Like I said we all have our ways of educating aquarist, what may work for you may not fit my style. Good luck in your coming ventures.

 

[bud29]

I'll save you some time:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f100/hybridizing-thoughts-and-should-i-208417.html

Hmm very interesting thread to say the least......

I am not as passionate as Wyomingite or Hukit are about this topic, but, I thought I might as well take part in this thread and just share my opinion.....

Hybridization does not seem to benefit anything. Making a fish that cannot close its mouth is not "cool," it's atrocious. By hybridizing you seem to create more problems than anything. You may think you will make a cooler fish by hybridizing, but as stated in the thread hukit posted initially, there are so many cichlids out there, you should be able to find one that strikes your fancy, and not have to hybridize. Plus, if you look at all the cichlids out there, and you can't find one you like, do you really think that hybridizing will finally make one you do?

Just my two cents.

 

[MacDracor]

It seems that a few people still do not quite understand what a hybrid is. I've seen several posts comparing color morphs to hybrids.
Color morphs, strains, and fancy varieties are all done by crossing individuals within a species. For example, take a jack Dempsey with a bluish tint a d breed to another with the same trait. Continue crossing until you have a true blue fish. That's a strain.
Hybrids involve crossing species. This is trickier because species have barriers to prevent this from occurring naturally. Sometimes it's a square peg/round hole situation (opossums have a bifurcated male sex organ. That's right. It's forked. Take a minute to let that sink in.) and sometimes it's a matter of chromosomal incompatibility. Like crossing a Molly with a swordtail to try to get new fin shapes (please note I have no idea if this example is possible, it's just what popped into my head).
The flower horn cichlid is an example of why this can be bad. Sure, you get cool shapes or colors, but there are often side effects that an adversely affect quality of life.
I won't go into a lot of detail here as its been covered quite thoroughly. I would just like to say that when hybridization occurs in nature, it either fails to create viable young, or t creates a new species. But natural selection determines this. In the homes of aquarists who are not geneticists, it just doesn't seem ethical. We end up with deformities and weak fish. Lets take pride not in creating freaks, but rather in preserving the wonder and beauty of our world's incredible diversity.

 

[zac85]

Im all for hybridization as long as the original species are not bred out....we create dog breeds and cat breeds and no one says anything about it.

 

[jetajockey]

Im all for hybridization as long as the original species are not bred out....we create dog breeds and cat breeds and no one says anything about it.

Please read the post prior.

 

[5x5]

Im all for hybridization as long as the original species are not bred out....we create dog breeds and cat breeds and no one says anything about it.

Your comparing apples to oranges. Breeds of dogs are not different species.

 

[HUKIT]

Im all for hybridization as long as the original species are not bred out....we create dog breeds and cat breeds and no one says anything about it.

First I'd read the entire thread, links included.

Please read the post prior.

Then read this link:

Cichlid Hybrids

 

[zac85]

Ok then how about plants? Plant hybrids are not looked down on...they are created for the same purpose as the fish and they arent looked down on at all.

 

[Maxkolbe]

I believe there is a distinct difference between hybridizing a plant and hybridizing an animal. IMHO animals are higher on the scale of ethics than vegetation. It is ethical to mow your grass or breed a plant that wouldn't exist in the wild (provided It doesn't outcompete native species) but it is unethical to cross breed fish to the point where they can't close their mouths or develop health issues.

Just my two cents.

 

[zac85]

I believe it only to be good if done for the right reasons and under tge right circumstances.

 

[HUKIT]

I believe it only to be good if done for the right reasons and under tge right circumstances.

What would you consider to be the right circumstances? This is a discussion so please share your thoughts.

 

[RAH]

What would you consider to be the right circumstances? This is a discussion so please share your thoughts.

Wow i'm gone for a day and I get a ear full of facts and opinion! Lol but I do find all this information very useful and do hope it serves as a reference for other ppl interested in this subject.

 

[zac85]

The right circumdtances wiulf be....not inbreeding....not over breeding...making sure they are properly bred with no deformity....in all actyuality working in the fish business...even pure breds are over bred and are having a lot of problems...i think if responsibly bred and monitored it would be ok.