I'm a GBR killer!

[severum mama]

I most definitely agree with you; I was more responding to the others' posts. I believe that DOCs can have a really negative impact on fish health, especially sensitive fish like discus- that's why I change 40-50% of the water for my discus every 2-3 days, as well as light vaccing to remove plant matter (sub. is Eco, or I would do deep gravel vacs). I totally agree that water quality, and concentration of DOCs, would likewise affect GBRs in the same way for an aquarist that doesn't keep on top of water changes as he/she should. But I do think that mass-produced stock comes into play in many situations too.

Interesting discussion!

 

[crazyred]

I'm with ya sev. mama, and I'll go one further.....I maintain that not only will a fish several generation removed from WC thrive, but I think that they adapt to spawning as well.

My rams, angels and apistos don't seem to be lacking in the spawning department. Everytime I turn around one or more of them have eggs in there, and if I would be more diligent about removing them before they hatch, I would probably have more fry than you could shake a stick at!!! Somehow, they keep getting eaten.....8O My #1 suspect is the Queen Arabesque pleco. I might start setting up a bunch of fry tanks around the house so I can start rescuing more eggs and start a breeding operation for all these poor folks that can't find good stock in these 'difficult' fish.

EDIT: Missed the posts while I was posting....LOL. I'm not sure about rams, but Apistos come from leaf littered areas of the Amazon and they seem to like dead plant matter around. It hasn't bothered my rams at all. These guys are the healthiest things I've ever seen. I don't know if I got lucky or what, but my tank looks a little like I imagine the Amazon to look. Plants, huge driftwood and sandy (Eco Complete) bottom. Execpt for the gH, kH, and pH, I feel like I've replicated their natural habitat quite well. I try to suck out most of the dead plant matter, but there's no way to get it all and the fish seem to love it. :?

 

[severum mama]

I'm not sure about rams, but Apistos come from leaf littered areas of the Amazon and they seem to like dead plant matter around.

I'll definitely agree with you there Melissa, but remember that in terms of DOC concentration that there's a huge difference between leaf litter in an open system (i.e. the fishes' natural habitat), where old water is continually replaced with new, versus a closed system (the aquarium), where DOC levels can only be lowered through PWCs.

I'm not saying that your tanks are dirty AT ALL- clearly they aren't, or you wouldn't be so successful as an aquarist. But to compare the 2 habitats is kind of apples and oranges, IMO.

 

[JDogg]

well i ofcourse do a 50-75% pwc per week as part of the EI dosing on this tank. you would think that this should keep the DOCs down, but maybe not. so other then pwc (which if done to much would cause a wast of ferts) how would one reduce DOCs? Carbon in the filter?

 

[crazyred]

I'll definitely agree with you there Melissa, but remember that in terms of DOC concentration that there's a huge difference between leaf litter in an open system (i.e. the fishes' natural habitat), where old water is continually replaced with new, versus a closed system (the aquarium), where DOC levels can only be lowered through PWCs.

I'm not saying that your tanks are dirty AT ALL- clearly they aren't, or you wouldn't be so successful as an aquarist. But to compare the 2 habitats is kind of apples and oranges, IMO.

Yeah, that's true.....never thought about how quickly crud and the associated bad stuff builds up in a tank vs. the river. Good point mama!!! LOL

I usually get about a 50% PWC with plant matter pick up done every week. sometimes it's hard, with 2 HUGE pieces of DW, to get all the dead plant stuff, though. I have TONS of filtration so I think that's what helps. I have a Penguin 350 w/biowheels and an Eheim ECCO 2233. Each rated for a tank larger than mine, but combined!!! Who man, talk about major filtration.

Carbon isn't going to do much for DOC's....PWC would still be about the only way to go in a closed system. Yep, ferts in, ferts out....all part of the game IMO.

 

[Jchillin]

Wow, this thread has become very intriguing. Based on the responses so far, I can use my 75 gal planted tank which is home to both 4 GBR's and 5 Bolivian Rams (not to mention other assorted animal life) as an example:

(First, anyone that has not read the GBR discussion that JDogg linked, should). The GBR's in the tank will be two years old come April. They were purchased at a very decent LFS locally and not directly from a breeder. The tank has gone through several evolutions regarding PWC's. I used to do every other week until late last fall when I switched over to weekly.

In regard to high levels of DOC's, it is very likely that I had higher levels when I was doing PWC's twice a month. The tank was heavily planted at all time (although it became slightly more densely cluttered in recent months).

GBR's from a LFS thrived to this day.

HTH.

PS - Sorry to hear about your rubberlip JD.

 

[BrianNY]

Exactly. DOCs will only be reduced by pwcs. Filtering won't help in this area. The bioload is a huge factor in the amount of DOCs. That's why I'm willing to bet that a 10g with just a pair of GBRs, and doing 1/3 to 1/2 pwcs daily will produce robust and healthy fish.

As far as the genetics go............ I know that successive generations will have recessive traits. The truth is though that most species that have been bred long term in captivity tend to do better than wild caught specimens. It's far easier to keep home bred discus than wild caught.

 

[JDogg]

i am trying to resist the urge to run home and do a pwc right now :? i just did a 50 % on saturday (before introducing a pair on sunday who were dead by monday morning :?) i would thing that that was the point the the week when my DOC level would be the lowest :? maybe i need to try a 100% pwc this weekend. do 50% saturday and another 50% sunday before starting my dosing regiment for the week.

i do struggle with the idea that my GBR are any more sensitive to DOC then the Apistos. the only major difference being (other then species) all the GBR i have tryed so far are LFS fish and my Apistos are from a local breeder.

i do not deny that DOC may indead play a part.

 

[severum mama]

As far as the genetics go............ I know that successive generations will have recessive traits. The truth is though that most species that have been bred long term in captivity tend to do better than wild caught specimens. It's far easier to keep home bred discus than wild caught.

Sure, but that's a whole different ballgame than the mass-produced stock of GBRs that you see in stores a lot of the time, that come from low-quality stock to begin with, and careless breeding practices. Factor in the use of color enhancing and/or growth hormones, and I'd say that would make much of the LFS stock pretty weak to begin with, right?

This just keeps getting better!

 

[crazyred]

I would think so, but jchillin's experience seems to contradict this. I think he just happened to get a hold of some decent GBR's from good stock at the LFS. His example seems to defy everything I've heard and read from other aquarists. I would say it depends on where your LFS gets their rams. I would say that the VAST majority get them from the Asian fish farms notorious for bad breeding practices and hormone enhancement.

As for the PWC's....Jdogg, if you want to step them up, by all means, but very few aquarists would recommend 100% water change at one time (even if spread between 2 days). I usually do 50% or so every week. Let's not get too carried away...drastic change like that can sometimes do more harm than good. I still think you should consider the possibility that the stock you're getting is the major factor here since you are having success with your Apistos on your current routine. Good rams are not that delicate and sensitive. IMO

 

[JDogg]

As for the PWC's....Jdogg, if you want to step them up, by all means, but very few aquarists would recommend 100% water change at one time (even if spread between 2 days). I usually do 50% or so every week. Let's not get too carried away...drastic change like that can sometimes do more harm than good. I still think you should consider the possibility that the stock you're getting is the major factor here since you are having success with your Apistos on your current routine. Good rams are not that delicate and sensitive. IMO

yea i know 100% is dramatic

 

[Jchillin]

I would think so, but jchillin's experience seems to contradict this. I think he just happened to get a hold of some decent GBR's from good stock at the LFS. His example seems to defy everything I've heard and read from other aquarists.

I will say upfront that I've been very surprised at these results, since it is very rare that it would occur.

This subject was part and parcel of the reason behind my starting the GBR discussion. I continuously saw post after post, thread after thread of "Premature GBR demise" and thought it would be worthwhile to compare experiences of other aquarists.

What I failed to mention in the earlier post was the percentage of the bi-monthly PWC's. It was 30 to 40% (depended on how fast I would get back to the tank while draining).

One thing that I did notice was that GBR's faired better in planted tanks. I have no idea of why at the moment. Something to consider when stocking them.

 

[crazyred]

I'm not saying that it's impossible to get healthy GBR's from a LFS, just, IME, improbable. I'm glad your experience has been different jchillin. I agree, plants and PWC's do go a long way, but the stock quality has to be there too....obviously your LFS got a hold of some excellent ones.

I also think that GBRs are one fish that needs a VERY mature tank. One that has been in continuous successful operation for a while. I think some aquarists (no one on this thread in particular) add them too early. I kept fish for over a year (in my 29) before I tried my hand at them, and I failed with the first set that I bought for my newer 55 (GBRs from my local LFS....the ones with the healthy, tank bred angels). I mustered up all the patience I could find and let my bio-filter get way established (from tons of seed material & plants) and let the platies that I moved from my 29 get the tank well set. When I tried again, I skipped the LFS and went straight to Aquabid.....that was 6 or 7 months ago and they're still very well and spawning all the time.

Gee, JDogg, I hope all this is helping you feel better....this is a very useful thread...as was jchillin's thread on GBRs.....great discussion.

 

[bs6749]

Just one question... you said ammonia and nitrates were 0 ppm and then you said that NO3 (nitrate again) was 25ppm. Which one is it?

I am assuming that ammonia and nitrIte are 0 ppm and that nitrAte is 25ppm. That seems a little on the high side to me. Not saying that it caused the deaths but I personally think it should be down at 10ppm. Yes, I realize that it is a heavily planted tank, but if the plants aren't taking care of this then it is building up in the tank to harmful levels. Even in a planted tank I think it should be 10ppm and nothing more.