Koi Angelfish breeders, I have a question...

[Andy Sager]

As some of you I'm sure know, I have gone back into Angelfish breeding on a bigger than hobbyist scale. Some of the newer varieties of Angelfish weren't even invented when i left the field in the 1980s. I am looking to discuss some thoughts about Koi Angels with others here who are producing them. So if you are breeding the Koi Angel and producing viable fry, please chime in or PM me. Thanks.

 

[sinibotia]

I just got a pair that has not yet produced viable fry for me specifically. They have for someone else. But I'm interested in hearing more?

 

[PoppaRyno]

Ask away.... Im not a pro like you andy, but maybe i can help.

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[Andy Sager]

Thanks for the replies guys but my questions are more directed toward this color form specifically so if you haven't raised a lot of this color, you can't really help me with this issue ( I hate to say ). I'm seeing different situations with only this color form and since I only have one pair producing these fish, I need to verify some things. Only someone raising Koi fry specifically can answer this for me.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Ive researched and raised them. Both red koi and panda koi angels. I dont anymore, but helped a member breed them for a while.

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[PoppaRyno]

Color form is an interesting topic with them. They're like snowflakes. And as you know angels regardless of how many genes are in them will only hold onto 2 genes. Produce many genetic different fry, but only show 2 genes. Alot of what people are calling koi angels are in fact not. They are red head (red cap) marbles... I know a ton more abt them if i can at all help.

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[Andy Sager]

Color form is an interesting topic with them. They're like snowflakes. And as you know angels regardless of how many genes are in them will only hold onto 2 genes. Produce many genetic different fry, but only show 2 genes. Alot of what people are calling koi angels are in fact not. They are red head (red cap) marbles... I know a ton more abt them if i can at all help.

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Thanks, PM sent.

 

[PoppaRyno]

As far as ive found there is no "KOI" angel. Its not a strain but a color morph of strain crossings. There are several ways to cross and get koi patterns. But like i said "as far as i can find" koi isnt a strain. At least its not recognized as such. When dr. Concannon and i spoke abt it he referenced TAS as working to classify / clear this up. But since theres no difinitive way to make koi, or the lack of a color/pattern standard its still technically just a morph.... I believe.

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[PoppaRyno]

He also told me that most koi whos red is most pronounced on the head is just a gold cap or redhead crossed with marbles... The prominent head coloring is a dead give away and they will neber achieve a true koi pattern as its the red splotches on the body thats whats sought after with the koi. Which in the caps and heads its mostly localized to the skull. This keeps it from achieving a true koi appearance( red splotches throughout the body.) most koi angels can lack enough white to qualify as well. When crossed with a smokey you can get to 4 color kois with the introduction of the yellow from them. This

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[ghyti]

According to TAS a Koi is a fish with two stripeless genes and either two Goldmarble genes or a Goldmarble gene and a Gold gene. (Gm/Gm - S/S or Gm/g - S/S) Generally a Gm/Gm Koi will have more black patches than a Gm/g Koi. They will be White, Orange and Black. Supposedly the more orange the better quality fish. As far as I know the color patterns are not reproducible, but can be enhanced by line breeding (ie: more orange). Some breeders are working on enhancing the orange color to get a red fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks guys. So then, phynotypically speaking, a "koi" angel must possess the 3 colors White, Black and Orange/Red. Is this correct? If so, how can a "Panda" be a Panda Koi as, to my knowledge, a "Panda" only contains White and Black and should be equal in color density?

 

[PoppaRyno]

White black And brown/tan.

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[Andy Sager]

White black And brown/tan.

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So then "KOI" refers to 3 colors( similar to Calico in cats) and depending on which color, Orange/ Red or Brown/Tan determines Panda or "Koi". Is this correct?

 

[PoppaRyno]

Indeed...

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[PoppaRyno]

Very similar. Ive even seen blue "koi" angels popping up lately. Which is blue, white, black... Such on and so forth... I feel many phynotypes are coming down the pipeline soon from this.

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[Andy Sager]

Very similar. Ive even seen blue "koi" angels popping up lately. Which is blue, white, black... Such on and so forth... I feel many phynotypes are coming down the pipeline soon from this.

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Hopefully with better physical features because there is a lot of bad stuff out there now. Don't need more colors of bad stuff.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Hopefully with better physical features because there is a lot of bad stuff out there now. Don't need more colors of bad stuff.

Thats the prob IMO.

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[ghyti]

I think the term panda koi was originally used to describe a koi without any orange. I also think it was originated before the Philippine blue gene was discovered.

A koi is defined by its genetics. A (Gm/Gm - S/S) or (Gm/g - S/S) is a koi, no matter what it looks like. The orange/black/white ratio seems to be random and unpredictable, although some people have koi lines with much more orange than black or white.
The phenotype names can be very confusing since Just like with discus, the angelfish industry's phenotype nomenclature is completely unregulated. Even TAS has a bit of trouble with some of its phenotype names and some of the names generated quite a while ago are no longer applicable today.

 

[PoppaRyno]

I think the term panda koi was originally used to describe a koi without any orange. I also think it was originated before the Philippine blue gene was discovered.

A koi is defined by its genetics. A (Gm/Gm - S/S) or (Gm/g - S/S) is a koi, no matter what it looks like. The orange/black/white ratio seems to be random and unpredictable, although some people have koi lines with much more orange than black or white.
The phenotype names can be very confusing since Just like with discus, the angelfish industry's phenotype nomenclature is completely unregulated. Even TAS has a bit of trouble with some of its phenotype names and some of the names generated quite a while ago are no longer applicable today.

Agree with most of that. But i have seen, help produce, and raise koi that i wouldnt know were from different genetic lineage, if i hadnt seen the patents and the parents parents and it was not the genes you say it has to be. Im 99.9% with ya though. This is why i praise TAS for the unequivocal research and efforts. But i have seen with my own eyes.... Its a phynotype.

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[Andy Sager]

Thanks guys. That's been my issue. I've been thinking the term "Koi" meant having to have the three colors ( Black, White and Red/Orange). So one of you says the variety is defined by it's genetics rather than appearance and the other by appearance more than genetics or did I miss something?

So much has changed since I left the breeding in the 80s. Now there are 3 types of Golds ( when before there was 1 possibly 2) and 7 kinds of Marbles ( when before there were 2, Marbles and Gold Marbles ) let alone all the different color varieties. So you can see how this can be confusing.
Where I am at now is that the red or orange doesn't show on my fish, from 2 different pairs, until the fry are about 4-6 months old. I don't know if this is because of the color or because of the fish. The only connection between the 2 pairs is that the male from one pair is the F1 from the other pair. I currently have that male with another female, an unrelated Gold Marble, that has some darker orange/Red along her dorsal. I haven't gotten any fry yet to see if there is a difference in those fry's coloration, age and size. The female from that pair is a Red Top with a white body which has to be linked to the old Red Caps that I once had and that I read were one of the lines used to create the first Koi Angels. The genetics of these fish have certainly changed over the years. Too bad the shapes have also. Today's fish really don't look much like their wild counterparts anymore. It's a shame in my eyes.