Ongoing Experiment: Cichlids at 89 degrees

[phin]

I will just point you here Considerations on Temperature, Longevity and Aging since you desire scientific research before anyone can post a comment.

I'll post an excerpt from the conclusion:

Reduction of CBT increased lifespan and possibly retarded aging in poikilotherms as well as in homeotherms independent of CR.

poikilotherms = cold-blooded animals, like fish.

I could post link after link of scientific journal publications as well as bio-statistical journal articles that show a correllation between core body temperature of poikilotherms and lifespan, but you know how to use google

 

[phin]

No no, I equated that to all species on the planet, cold or warm blooded... There is an article on fish metabolism from petmd that does support this in fish, but as someone who has read about 40 books on cichlid environment and lifespan info included in many, I have found nobody making bold claims one way or the other... I will point out though that many saltwater fish that I have read about actually have faster metabolism than cichlids at the colder temps they live in so it may be bold for me to claim that they are living longer because of their faster metabolic rates, so I won't.

Edit: Also like to point out that lifespan is not much of a concern in this case as most these fish live 15+ years if properly maintained and even 5 years minus is not much concern to me... I am really intrigued by and studying their lowered aggression and overall healthier appearance.

water temperature -> core body temperature is not the sole determinant of lifespan, but there is plenty of research that shows a strong correlation. The quantities of the specific biological processes impacted by CBT is not understood exactly, but it is known that, all else equal, lower CBT=longer lifespan.

 

[opdday2]

I will just point you here Considerations on Temperature, Longevity and Aging since you desire scientific research before anyone can post a comment.

I'll post an excerpt from the conclusion:

Reduction of CBT increased lifespan and possibly retarded aging in poikilotherms as well as in homeotherms independent of CR.

poikilotherms = cold-blooded animals, like fish.

I could post link after link of scientific journal publications as well as bio-statistical journal articles that show a correllation between core body temperature of poikilotherms and lifespan, but you know how to use google

I am sorry that I led you to believe that you need scientific evidence to post, I was simply saying that if you are going to claim something to be fact and would like me to regard it as such, then it would be nice. Again, lifespan is not the issue, so I will read the article and form an opinion after reading, but please feel free to post as I would like to keep this an open discussion

Edit: So it may in fact effect lifespan, so I lose 5 years off the 15... Most people would agree that a happy healthy 10 years is better than a less happy/healthy 15... Though this article has effected my thought process it does remain rather inconclusive for cichlids, not that I'm saying you are in anyway wrong, just there does not seem to be info on the topic at hand.

 

[phin]

Edit: Also like to point out that lifespan is not much of a concern in this case as most these fish live 15+ years if properly maintained and even 5 years minus is not much concern to me... I am really intrigued by and studying their lowered aggression and overall healthier appearance.

I'd also like to know that if this isn't even a concern of your why you didn't just state that as soon as the issue was brought up instead of making a stink of it?

 

[phin]

Edit: So it may in fact effect lifespan, so I lose 5 years off the 15... Most people would agree that a happy healthy 10 years is better than a less happy/healthy 15... Though this article has effected my thought process it does remain rather inconclusive for cichlids, not that I'm saying you are in anyway wrong, just there does not seem to be info on the topic at hand.

You make some serious assumptions here.

1."So id may in fact effect [sic] lifespan, so I lose 5 years off the 15" You are erroneously assuming a 33% reduction in lifespan. There is no way quantify the effect of temperature on your cichlids' lifespans. It may be 5 years, it may be 2 years, it may be 10 years. You don't know, so its a faulty assumption to make.

2. "Most people would agree that a happy healthy 10 years is better than a less happy/healthy 15" Again you are erroneously assuming that your fish are happier and healthier at 89 F than at 78 F. Observing higher metabolism and more biological activity may make you happy, but you have nothing to base your assumption that your fish are living happier lives. Perhaps they are "less happy"? I could make an arguement that their body becomes more stressed under conditions that cause a higher metabolic rate as more entropy and oxydative damage is proven to occur with higher core body temperatures.

There is plenty of info on the topic at hand. You just need to look for it.

This isn't a matter of a non-natural environment being more hospitable than a fish's native water. There are many factors, other than temperature, that would cause a non-native species to thrive in non-native waters. most have to do with natural predators/food source, not the temperature.

 

[opdday2]

I'd also like to know that if this isn't even a concern of your why you didn't just state that as soon as the issue was brought up instead of making a stink of it?

Because I was ambushed with negative comments and with these comments were bold claims not being backed up, that was the issue I was making a so called stink of... And if you check my topic at the start aging was not mentioned, nor did I bring it up, but I'm not going to just disregard a persons comments entirely, as I said I'd like this to be an open discussion... So yes I will discuss aging, and anything else relevant to the heat of my tank, but that does not mean that it is of any concern to me in how I keeping my tank at the moment.

edit: Funny how I have this topic going on in several cichlid forums right now and this is the only one receiving where people seem to have all the answers on a topic that is not commonly or nearly not at all discussed. this comment does not apply to everyone and I am in certainly not asking you to stop posting your feelings and you may post however you want, but If your telling me I'm wrong and you don't back up you reasoning I am going to call you out on it as that is just the natural order of discovery for myself and possibly anyone who reads this topic even years from now.

 

[phin]

Because I was ambushed with negative comments and with these comments were bold claims not being backed up, that was the issue I was making a so called stink of... And if you check my topic at the start aging was not mentioned, nor did I bring it up, but I'm not going to just disregard a persons comments entirely, as I said I'd like this to be an open discussion... So yes I will discuss aging, and anything else relevant to the heat of my tank, but that does not mean that it is of any concern to me in how I keeping my tank at the moment.

fair enough.

 

[Scottyhorse]

I do have to agree with everything that phin and jetajockey have said. The thing that bugs me is:

You do not care if the fish live to their full life span. You care more about their coloration and temperament, if I read correctly.
See, this is the way I see fish keeping.
These fish are dependent on you to live. You need to feed them, you need to clean their homes, give the appropriate housing and tank mates. It is all up to you. They have no say in it.
I remember reading something that you said.
"At the higher temperature, they are less aggressive. When the temp was lowered ( to their normal temp) they became more aggressive. Did you have the thought that maybe the reason they are being nice to each other is because the temperature is suppressing their natural instincts to go after the other fish. I know when it is hotter, I don't want to move around much or do anything really, but when the temp is not too high or too low, I am my normal self.
Also, when you overstock the tank, fish cannot make their own territories. Thus less aggression. That may be why the pairs that in normal conditions would kill each other are spawning so close.

I do not mean to jab at you or start an argument, this is just my opinion. Personally, I would not do what you are doing or recommended another person to do it, but you are already doing it, oh well.

 

[opdday2]

I do have to agree with everything that phin and jetajockey have said. The thing that bugs me is:

You do not care if the fish live to their full life span. You care more about their coloration and temperament, if I read correctly.
See, this is the way I see fish keeping.
These fish are dependent on you to live. You need to feed them, you need to clean their homes, give the appropriate housing and tank mates. It is all up to you. They have no say in it.
I remember reading something that you said.
"At the higher temperature, they are less aggressive. When the temp was lowered ( to their normal temp) they became more aggressive. Did you have the thought that maybe the reason they are being nice to each other is because the temperature is suppressing their natural instincts to go after the other fish. I know when it is hotter, I don't want to move around much or do anything really, but when the temp is not too high or too low, I am my normal self.
Also, when you overstock the tank, fish cannot make their own territories. Thus less aggression. That may be why the pairs that in normal conditions would kill each other are spawning so close.

I do not mean to jab at you or start an argument, this is just my opinion. Personally, I would not do what you are doing or recommended another person to do it, but you are already doing it, oh well.

I am most certainly concerned most with health, and as far as I can tell my fish are healthier in the warmer water. Coloration is a plus and also is a main sign of health which is why I bring it up... As for not wanting to do anything, they are in fact more active that prior and they swim into the upper waters which I would think is the warmer water aswell... Also if your comparing fish to people, I find that people eat less when they are to hot, at the current moment the fish are eating more, so I don't think they are uncomfortable. Have you on the other hand considered that they may in fact be healthier and therefore less aggressive, it's a bit of a stretch, but I know reptiles become more aggressive in less desirable environments. I am certainly not claiming that my fish are healthier, just saying they appear to be such. I'm done discussing stocking as that is something that does lead to much to much controversy and I don't feel it is worth my time to take that on. I do enjoy your feedback, and I have considered those things, in fact I am still considering them. I will admit that breeding is a main concern of mine though and the increase in breeding is definitely a plus as I do sell my fry to local pet stores. That said if health were diminishing I would certainly lower the temp

 

[Scottyhorse]

I am most certainly concerned most with health, and as far as I can tell my fish are healthier in the warmer water. Coloration is a plus and also is a main sign of health which is why I bring it up... As for not wanting to do anything, they are in fact more active that prior and they swim into the upper waters which I would think is the warmer water aswell... Also if your comparing fish to people, I find that people eat less when they are to hot, at the current moment the fish are eating more, so I don't think they are uncomfortable. Have you on the other hand considered that they may in fact be healthier and therefore less aggressive, it's a bit of a stretch, but I know reptiles become more aggressive in less desirable environments. I am certainly not claiming that my fish are healthier, just saying they appear to be such. I'm done discussing stocking as that is something that does lead to much to much controversy and I don't feel it is worth my time to take that on. I do enjoy your feedback, and I have considered those things, in fact I am still considering them. I will admit that breeding is a main concern of mine though and the increase in breeding is definitely a plus as I do sell my fry to local pet stores. That said if health were diminishing I would certainly lower the temp

Like I said, that is just what I processed in my head while reading your posts. I did not want to start an argument, just state my opinions. I do have to agree the fish will probably have a shorter life span. What I said what just my opinion, not facts in any way

I do hope it goes well for you and the fish, and I would love to have picture updates, and updates how things go in general.

-Sydney

 

[opdday2]

You make some serious assumptions here.

1."So id may in fact effect [sic] lifespan, so I lose 5 years off the 15" You are erroneously assuming a 33% reduction in lifespan. There is no way quantify the effect of temperature on your cichlids' lifespans. It may be 5 years, it may be 2 years, it may be 10 years. You don't know, so its a faulty assumption to make.

2. "Most people would agree that a happy healthy 10 years is better than a less happy/healthy 15" Again you are erroneously assuming that your fish are happier and healthier at 89 F than at 78 F. Observing higher metabolism and more biological activity may make you happy, but you have nothing to base your assumption that your fish are living happier lives. Perhaps they are "less happy"? I could make an arguement that their body becomes more stressed under conditions that cause a higher metabolic rate as more entropy and oxydative damage is proven to occur with higher core body temperatures.

There is plenty of info on the topic at hand. You just need to look for it.

This isn't a matter of a non-natural environment being more hospitable than a fish's native water. There are many factors, other than temperature, that would cause a non-native species to thrive in non-native waters. most have to do with natural predators/food source, not the temperature.

Sorry, missed this one... I actually have been researching and looking for three month for any info on this and though I can find thousands of article discussing low temps, not one have I found discussing high temps... If you can point me in the right direction then that be great... Also I wasn't meaning that statement to be taking literal as with most of my post I do not have supporting info on this topic and therefore would love if anyone does know a source for such info they'd post it.

Can you provide articles or research of any form that supports heightened stress? I ask because the only info that has been pointed out was based on research done with insects and mice. I am certainly not claiming they are healthier, but I will say they are certainly happier and unhealthy cichlids do not breed, so they certainly are not unhealthy.

 

[opdday2]

Like I said, that is just what I processed in my head while reading your posts. I did not want to start an argument, just state my opinions. I do have to agree the fish will probably have a shorter life span. What I said what just my opinion, not facts in any way

I do hope it goes well for you and the fish, and I would love to have picture updates, and updates how things go in general.

-Sydney

Thank you and I truly do enjoy your feedback, probably most of all so far. I will keep this updated, and will provide more videos and pictures to go with... I certainly do not want to argue either just I respect your opinion enough to have shared mine. Thanks again

 

[jetajockey]

Sorry, missed this one... I actually have been researching and looking for three month for any info on this and though I can find thousands of article discussing low temps, not one have I found discussing high temps... If you can point me in the right direction then that be great... Also I wasn't meaning that statement to be taking literal as with most of my post I do not have supporting info on this topic and therefore would love if anyone does know a source for such info they'd post it.

Can you provide articles or research of any form that supports heightened stress? I ask because the only info that has been pointed out was based on research done with insects and mice. I am certainly not claiming they are healthier, but I will say they are certainly happier and unhealthy cichlids do not breed, so they certainly are not unhealthy.

Unhealthy and unhappy fish do breed, though, so you are starting out with a misconception.

I'm not sure what tank size you are working with but regardless your stock list is very unorthodox. Because of that, most people who care or are versed in stocking basics are going to ask questions.

No offense intended but when you post in a public forum you should expect both positive and negative responses. The person responding may have no clue what they are talking about, or you might actually learn something from them.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Its an interesting thought pattern you have going here, but personally I think your observations and conclusions are in error and I'll through out a few alternative thoughts here at the end. Before that however, I'd like to address one of your other statements.

Sorry for all the edits: You may want to look up the definition of science as though I made no claim that this is scientific, any experimentation whether it follows the scientific method or not is scientific in nature.

I'm sorry, but you are completely incorrect here. Any experiment whether it follows the scientific method or not is not real science, many in fact are what are known as Pseudo ("false") science, where individuals attempt to make a non scientific experiment look like valid science and thereby gain credability. Doing real science has very real parameters and must to some degree follow the scientific method. All scientific experimentation requires two factors, neither of which you have in place. The first and foremost is a control of some sort, which you in fact do not have in place. And the second is repeatability. That portion arguably could occur following the conclusion of your observations (not truly an experiment).

I am most certainly concerned most with health, and as far as I can tell my fish are healthier in the warmer water. Coloration is a plus and also is a main sign of health which is why I bring it up... As for not wanting to do anything, they are in fact more active that prior and they swim into the upper waters which I would think is the warmer water aswell... Also if your comparing fish to people, I find that people eat less when they are to hot, at the current moment the fish are eating more, so I don't think they are uncomfortable. Have you on the other hand considered that they may in fact be healthier and therefore less aggressive, it's a bit of a stretch, but I know reptiles become more aggressive in less desirable environments. I am certainly not claiming that my fish are healthier, just saying they appear to be such. I'm done discussing stocking as that is something that does lead to much to much controversy and I don't feel it is worth my time to take that on. I do enjoy your feedback, and I have considered those things, in fact I am still considering them. I will admit that breeding is a main concern of mine though and the increase in breeding is definitely a plus as I do sell my fry to local pet stores. That said if health were diminishing I would certainly lower the temp

IMO, I think that a large part of your assumptions here are faulty. The fact that fish are swimming and eating more as has already been pointed out has absolutely nothing to do with how comfortable they are or are not. It is factually a result of increased body temperature in a cold blooded organism which results in increased activity levels and increased metabolism. This is true of all cold-blooded creatures on the planet. To argue that you can not find any such information in regards to cichlids specifically and there the know data has little to no impact on your "experimentation" is completely faulty. These are know facts in regard to all cold-blooded organisms and cichlids are cold-blooded, hence the facts apply, regardless of whether cichlids are specifically named or not. In regards to the brighter colors and increased breeding, I would argue that that has nothing to do with any degree of increased health. These animals are seasonal breeders in their native environments are increased color during breeding season is a natural occurance. Have you considered the possibility that all you've done is create a situation in which the animals are breeding unconditionally because they associate the increased temperatures with breeding season. Additionally to have animals continually breeding at increased rates is also not healthy for them (tons of research out there to support this as well), and the long term consequences of this increased breeding activity will eventually begin to tell on the fish.

All that said, my biggest concerns in the whole "experiment" that you have described are #1 your apparant nonconcern for the welfare of the fish under your care (so they have a shorter life span, oh well, no big concern), and #2 the apparant unregulation of your tanks temperature. You've already stated that you lost heat and the temperature dropped on the tank at one point. From a scientific standpoint, that alone would null and void your entire "experiment" (if it truly were one, which it isn't) and that also indicates that you do not have back-up heaters and chillers in place to maintain a truly constant temperature, which only further nullifies your nonexistent experiment.

I personally have no issue with individuals who make a point based on observations they have made regarding their own experiences with their home aquariums. Observation is a valid part of the scientific process. However to claim that you are doing some type of "experiment" which does imply that it is somehow scientific when you are doing nothing of the sort is were I have difficulty. What you are doing is making some observations on the results of increasing the temperature of your personal aquarium on the fish that are currently contained within that aquarium. You are not doing a valid experiment of any type. You are welcome to post up your results, and I'm certain that most experienced cichlid keepers will be interested in seeing your long term results, just as I'm sure that most of us have a pretty good idea of what the end result will actually be.

 

[opdday2]

Its an interesting thought pattern you have going here, but personally I think your observations and conclusions are in error and I'll through out a few alternative thoughts here at the end. Before that however, I'd like to address one of your other statements.



I'm sorry, but you are completely incorrect here. Any experiment whether it follows the scientific method or not is not real science, many in fact are what are known as Pseudo ("false") science, where individuals attempt to make a non scientific experiment look like valid science and thereby gain credability. Doing real science has very real parameters and must to some degree follow the scientific method. All scientific experimentation requires two factors, neither of which you have in place. The first and foremost is a control of some sort, which you in fact do not have in place. And the second is repeatability. That portion arguably could occur following the conclusion of your observations (not truly an experiment).



IMO, I think that a large part of your assumptions here are faulty. The fact that fish are swimming and eating more as has already been pointed out has absolutely nothing to do with how comfortable they are or are not. It is factually a result of increased body temperature in a cold blooded organism which results in increased activity levels and increased metabolism. This is true of all cold-blooded creatures on the planet. To argue that you can not find any such information in regards to cichlids specifically and there the know data has little to no impact on your "experimentation" is completely faulty. These are know facts in regard to all cold-blooded organisms and cichlids are cold-blooded, hence the facts apply, regardless of whether cichlids are specifically named or not. In regards to the brighter colors and increased breeding, I would argue that that has nothing to do with any degree of increased health. These animals are seasonal breeders in their native environments are increased color during breeding season is a natural occurance. Have you considered the possibility that all you've done is create a situation in which the animals are breeding unconditionally because they associate the increased temperatures with breeding season. Additionally to have animals continually breeding at increased rates is also not healthy for them (tons of research out there to support this as well), and the long term consequences of this increased breeding activity will eventually begin to tell on the fish.

All that said, my biggest concerns in the whole "experiment" that you have described are #1 your apparant nonconcern for the welfare of the fish under your care (so they have a shorter life span, oh well, no big concern), and #2 the apparant unregulation of your tanks temperature. You've already stated that you lost heat and the temperature dropped on the tank at one point. From a scientific standpoint, that alone would null and void your entire "experiment" (if it truly were one, which it isn't) and that also indicates that you do not have back-up heaters and chillers in place to maintain a truly constant temperature, which only further nullifies your nonexistent experiment.

I personally have no issue with individuals who make a point based on observations they have made regarding their own experiences with their home aquariums. Observation is a valid part of the scientific process. However to claim that you are doing some type of "experiment" which does imply that it is somehow scientific when you are doing nothing of the sort is were I have difficulty. What you are doing is making some observations on the results of increasing the temperature of your personal aquarium on the fish that are currently contained within that aquarium. You are not doing a valid experiment of any type. You are welcome to post up your results, and I'm certain that most experienced cichlid keepers will be interested in seeing your long term results, just as I'm sure that most of us have a pretty good idea of what the end result will actually be.

This really needs to be taken in context of the conversation I was having and obviously you are just reading a bit and piece here and there then finding ways to attack it, in short I'm done discussing this with you. Please continuing post, but don't expect further response

btw Websters Definition for experiment: A test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle.

And current information is my control, you don't have to actively run a control group if you are building upon another's work... If you are so concerned on what is science and what is not, take a philosophy class

 

[opdday2]

Unhealthy and unhappy fish do breed, though, so you are starting out with a misconception.

I'm not sure what tank size you are working with but regardless your stock list is very unorthodox. Because of that, most people who care or are versed in stocking basics are going to ask questions.

No offense intended but when you post in a public forum you should expect both positive and negative responses. The person responding may have no clue what they are talking about, or you might actually learn something from them.

This is the last time I will state this... I have no problem with negative feedback, but if your going to take the time to tell someone their wrong... Someone who has been breeding cichlids for sale over 15 years mind you, it is reasonable that you have the time to provide articles, documents, books, any sources that provide this view... No one can seem to do that and for this reason I ask if you are going to provide negative comments without a source expect negative response. I employ anyone to say what they want, I have not asked a single person not to, but I will continue to defend myself against unsupported claims always. Again as far as I'm concerned stocking is neither here nor there, I certainly am aware of how unorthodox it may be, but again 15 years of experience has not led me wrong yet and I don't care to discuss it and so will not as the topic is about heating. Thank you for your concern, but it is obvious that you have not kept up on this topic as I have mentioned twice the tank size and do not care to do so again because I believe once it was in direct reply to your comment

I was inaccurate, it was never in reply to one of your comments and for that assumption I am sorry... I have updated the topic start with this info so that I will not have to keep posting the size.

 

[Wy Renegade]

This really needs to be taken in context of the conversation I was having and obviously you are just reading a bit and piece here and there then finding ways to attack it, in short I'm done discussing this with you. Please continuing post, but don't expect further response

btw Websters Definition for experiment: A test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown or of testing a principle.

And current information is my control, you don't have to actively run a control group if you are building upon another's work... If you are so concerned on what is science and what is not, take a philosophy class

Thanks very much for your incorrect assumptions. I read every bit of the thread from beginning to end. You are welcome to ignore whatever logic you wish, it doesn't make what you are assuming or what you are doing any more correct.

FWIW, you are the one who brought up what is science and suggested that someone else look up the definition, I simply pointed out the error in your logic, just as I did in your assumptions regard your observations.

As a trained scientist who has actually conducted scientific research, I can tell you that once again you are incorrect in that you do not need to actively run a control. How is it exactly that you think you are building on anothers' work, since by your own admission, you have not evidence to support your assumptions? By your definition, every singe aquarium set-up that has occurred throughout history is an experiment.

As for your parting shot, what exactly is it you think taking a philosophy class has to do with actual science? I've taken both philosophy and science course and the two are not related, nor does knowledge in one imply knowledge in another. You are obviously one of those philosophers who believes that because I assumed it and I believe it, I must be correct and everyone else must be incorrect.

As somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread if you don't want/cant except public criticism, then you probably shouldn't post in a public forum for others to see.

 

[Wy Renegade]

This is the last time I will state this... I have no problem with negative feedback, but if your going to take the time to tell someone their wrong... Someone who has been breeding cichlids for sale over 15 years mind you, it is reasonable that you have the time to provide articles, documents, books, any sources that provide this view... No one can seem to do that and for this reason I ask if you are going to provide negative comments without a source expect negative response. I employ anyone to say what they want, I have not asked a single person not to, but I will continue to defend myself against unsupported claims always. Again as far as I'm concerned stocking is neither here nor there, I certainly am aware of how unorthodox it may be, but again 15 years of experience has not led me wrong yet and I don't care to discuss it and so will not as the topic is about heating. Thank you for your concern, but it is obvious that you have not kept up on this topic as I have mentioned twice the tank size and do not care to do so again because I believe once it was in direct reply to your comment

I was inaccurate, it was never in reply to one of your comments and for that assumption I am sorry... I have updated the topic start with this info so that I will not have to keep posting the size.

Please point out where you in any way shape or form have posted any documents, books, articles, or sources that provide any support for any of the incorrect assumptions that you have made throughout this thread.

 

[Cichlid-dude]

I agree that increased breeding and more vibrant collor is probably due to the fish thinking its breeding season. As for saying that if this fish are breeding they are healthy, i have to completely disagree. I have seen fish with parasites and bacterial diseases breeding. I highly doubt that those fish were happy, but they still take the opportunity to breed, its instinct to breed, not happiness.

I dont think that i would ever do an "experiment" on my fish if i had any doubts about what the outcome is. I certainly would not do it if i knew that the said fish's lifespan would be shortened. Keeping Fish happy and healthy is your obligation when you enter this hobby. The fish have no say in what environment that you put them in. My question is why would you put them in an environment that knowingly will shorten their life? In my opinion it is unresponsible to put the fish in this situation.

 

[bob mccoy]

fish are wonderfull pets not made form experiments. as far as im concerned this is crulity to animals. just saying