Severum pair - mating or fighting?

[Minawri]

Have two 6" green severums in a 55g. I got them from someone keeping them in a community cichlid tank and said he never noticed them breeding and wasn't sure if they were a breeding pair. He assumed it was because they were in a community tank.

They've settled in nicely in my tank and have started to exhibit some interesting behavoir... but I'm not sure if they are mating or fighting!

The first thing I noticed was the way they were scooping up mouthfuls of substrate and spitting it out elsewhere to make a little pit in front of the clay pot they like to hide in, which seemed like breeding behavior. Then they started locking lips. Sometimes for a few seconds, then other times for several minutes at a time which I assumed was breeding behavior but occasionally when they let go they started circling each other very fast and stirring up quite a ruckus. They also go over to the "pit" and sometimes shake their heads. They nudge and bump each other often. Sometimes it seems like they're agitating each other and nipping at faces or slapping with the tail. Also, their bellies and bottom fins have gone a yellow-orange color.

It really seems to me like breeding behavior, but I just wanted a second opinion. This is my first time owning sevs and I just want to be sure they're not fighting.

 

[HUKIT]

It's sometime hard to tell the difference honestly. I've had oscars exhibit the same behavior and they turned out to be both males, but my breeding pair exhibits the same behavior come spawning time. But everything you described being in a new tank I'm leaning towards aggression which is their way a setting a pecking order for dominance of the tank. Are there any other tankmates?

 

[Minawri]

No other tank mates, they are all alone. The person we got them from never mentioned any aggression between the two of them, and they are about two years old and grew up together.

 

[HUKIT]

A new house means new rules. I think they're sorting it being in a new tank. Do you have any pictures?

 

[Minawri]

Got some pics... don't mind the watermarks on the tank, they've been splashing like crazy. I have a lid but I keep it cracked slightly open for better aeration.

The left one is slightly larger:
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2d2dfc.jpg

Larger one on the right this time:
http://oi53.tinypic.com/2hf18xd.jpg

Larger on the left again:
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2n8y801.jpg

 

[HUKIT]

In my limited time sexing sev's, those are both male. The easiest way to tell is the worm markings in the head...makes have and females don't. So I think I was right earlier and they're just working out their place for dominance of the tank. Great looking fish though!

 

[Minawri]

Alright, that makes a lot of sense. Will they eventually settle down? Should I put a few tank mates in to settle the tension?

Thanks for all your help!

 

[ezy33]

Lip lock = breeding, they will lay eggs in the pot ( I found a piece of slate works as well if not better ), when they hatch they will go into the pit then into another pit and another Etc. When they are free swimming the male may start eating them. IME I siphon the fry into grow out tank when they still hang together just after they start free swimming.

Green severums happen to be my personal favorite FW fish, tuft enough to hang with Oscars but mild enough to keep with less aggressive fish.

 

[HUKIT]

They should start to settle down but there will still scuttles. I have quite a few alrge SA/CA and all have glimpses of this behavior, the key is monitoing the fish health so that no one is being hurt, hiding , and not eating. I've come home to see my oscars with scales missing, water on the floor and other fish hiding, so I know what happened but the 2 males go right back to best friends. Just watch to make sure it doesnt escalate into physical damage. I'm. Sure theyll be fine, good luck!

 

[HUKIT]

Lip lock = breeding, they will lay eggs in the pot ( I found a piece of slate works as well if not better ), when they hatch they will go into the pit then into another pit and another Etc. When they are free swimming the male may start eating them. IME I siphon the fry into grow out tank when they still hang together just after they start free swimming.

Green severums happen to be my personal favorite FW fish, tuft enough to
hang with Oscars but mild enough to keep with less aggressive fish.

I'm afraid to say lip locking doesn't always mean breeding. This is common behavior along with tail slapping, gill flaring, hurding, head shaking and chasing are all classic signs of aggression. I'm not saying it can't happen cause my breeding oscars do but so do my male Festae's, convicts, red points and my trimacs which are all male.

 

[ezy33]

IME any time a pair of Severums lip-lock more than once or twice it's breeding. Unless one of the pair is too small or weak they will try to breed.

 

[HUKIT]

The fish look like males.

 

[ezy33]

I can't tell positively from the photos. If they are truly mating then the anal fins may be damaged. In the last photo the one on the left looks to be female. Then I'm not there. IME males may fight to establish dominance but will end fairly quickly when one wins dominance of their world.

 

[Minawri]

A new problem with these two has arisen... they haven't eaten in two days. They'll nibble at frozen bloodworms but won't touch the pellets.

They have stopped lip-locking, and occasionally the larger one will banish the smaller one to the other side of the tank. The larger one also has a bit of anal fin damage and hovers where the pit was being dug. I'm still hanging on to the hope that they're breeding and not fighting, but it really does seem like aggression.

But when the smaller one comes out from behind the plants on the other side the larger one will instantly race over and just watch or maybe nip. Then other times they're both peaceful and suddenly both swim to the top and then a scuffle happens.

Is not eating normal when dominance is being decided? Should I try to trade a male for a female?

 

[Joyler]

Well this is a very interesting thread! I don't own cichlids nor have I ever...but I have bred bettas before...so maybe my experience with them can give you insight...bettas, when breeding don't eat normally (especially the male) that's why you are supposed to get them nice and plump with more food that contains higher amounts of protein...so the male has energy to devote time to his bubble nest when the eggs are laid...also during courting period, the male does usually get quite physical with the female...and markings will also change on the female when she is ready...Im sorry if what I say has no importance in the cichlid world...just something I have read about an experienced personally with bettas

 

[Minawri]

Their bellies have gotten so yellow!

This is a picture of one of them before I bought them: http://image.usedvictoria.com/photos/01/07/17726307_640.jpg

And this picture was taken yesterday:
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2d2dfc.jpg

I was feeding a variety diet of blanched lettuce and peas, cichlid pellets, frozen bloodworms, and freeze dried brine shrimp.

I haven't had any food aggression between them, and this not eating is just so peculiar. I wish I knew for sure so I could stop stressing about this.

 

[Severum-Breeder]

IME any time a pair of Severums lip-lock more than once or twice it's breeding. Unless one of the pair is too small or weak they will try to breed.

i have a breeding pair of severums a male 8" gold severum and female 6" green and they never lip locked it is mainly a sign of dominence showing the other who is boss of the tank. if they keep lip locking its cause the less dominant severum is questioning its authority. these two only show aggression after they bred trying to protect the eggs/fry.
and my female was the boss of my tank until this last spawning my male took over. Ive had this pair for over a year now

 

[Severum-Breeder]

Well this is a very interesting thread! I don't own cichlids nor have I ever...but I have bred bettas before...so maybe my experience with them can give you insight...bettas, when breeding don't eat normally (especially the male) that's why you are supposed to get them nice and plump with more food that contains higher amounts of protein...so the male has energy to devote time to his bubble nest when the eggs are laid...also during courting period, the male does usually get quite physical with the female...and markings will also change on the female when she is ready...Im sorry if what I say has no importance in the cichlid world...just something I have read about an experienced personally with bettas

IME my severums have never not eatten, breeding or not. They'll eat after laying the eggs, when in wriggler stage, infact its a good idea to feed them and note how much they eat cause sometimes theyll eat the fry and not be as hungry. And im unsure about the parental aggresion towards eachother both my severums have only really showed aggresion when i moved there eggs, and they actually calmed down when they noticed the eggs were still there in a breeding net and now they both take turns protecting the nest. These fish are REALLY intelligent and fun to watch.

 

[Severum-Breeder]

Their bellies have gotten so yellow!

This is a picture of one of them before I bought them: http://image.usedvictoria.com/photos/01/07/17726307_640.jpg

And this picture was taken yesterday:
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2d2dfc.jpg

I was feeding a variety diet of blanched lettuce and peas, cichlid pellets, frozen bloodworms, and freeze dried brine shrimp.

I haven't had any food aggression between them, and this not eating is just so peculiar. I wish I knew for sure so I could stop stressing about this.

the color of there stomach and fins wont verify male or female but if you can take a pic of there genital papillia right above there anal fin if its just a small bump (looks kinda like a ballpoint pen.) females papillia is noticable bigger so she is able to push the eggs out. but if youre able to get a good pic of there anal fin Id most likely be able to help.

as for the not eatting see uf they will eat sprilina flakes what ive done and my severum ABSOLUTELY LOVE is i pinch a bunch of the flake let it soak in water for a second usually there water so they know the foods coming and let it sink they come out swimming for that so fast ive even gotten my male gold severum to eat it out of my fingers


edit: also what is the temp of your water? if to cold they are less likely to eat I believe this to be true try turning the temp up a few degrees and see if thats any different