Too many cichlids in a 29gal?

[Mebbid]

Could you post a picture of the tank to see what you have going on?

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

To all, it appears that we have gotten off on the wrong foot, I am really not that kind of person. I've been on online forums awhile and reading my own posts I do sound like a know-it-all. I apologize for that, I in no way intended it to be like this.

I have researched the needs of apistos and Rams for several months, and when someone local was selling the juvies, I thought it would work with multiple pairs in this tank.So it's not like I have no idea about what I'm doing/impulse buy.

I just said it sounded like BS as saying Rams being Killer fish, as I have never in all my research heard that rams kill. Maybe it was just a bad lot? Also wondering if your apisto panduro were wild caught ones? As from my research wild ones can be way more aggressive....

Are there any more peaceful species of apisto that would work with a pair of Rams? I could exchange the panduros. Also would it be a problem if I had all males?

I really appreciate your advice, that's why I posted here.

@mikem, I know what you mean, but this is not a goldfish in a bowl kind a thing....

 

[mikem691]

gold fish in a bowl isn't what I mean. I a 1 pair of breeding rams in a 20 tall with neons. When they had eggs the neons wet not allowed near the Lowe half with our being chased back to the top. A 29 only gives an extra 6 inches. The male would shoot to the other end to chase them back to the upper half. These are the only rams I have experience with though. Brookster was my guide on that tank. I tend to go with the glass banger solo centrals. The other ones I have no experience with. Brookster is the man with them IMO.

 

[Brookster123]

No one said rams were killers either. They're more diers, especially the color morphs.. i had wc panduro..

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[Tropical Aquarist]

No i had wc panduro..

Not to be rude, but There is a Huge difference between wild caught fish and captive bred ones!!! No wonder yours were such killers.

Right? Or do you think mine will still turn out a bit crazy?

What would be a good substitute for them?

Sinibotia said 3/4 of her ram pairs were killers...

 

[Brookster123]

Not to be rude, but There is a Huge difference between wild caught fish and captive bred ones!!! No wonder yours were such killers.

Right? Or do you think mine will still turn out a bit crazy?

What would be a good substitute for them?

Sinibotia said 3/4 of her ram pairs were killers...

Is there?? Wouldn't know, only kept the wc. "They" weren't, she was . Of snails anyways.. don't know what she would have done to other fish but I can't imagine peaceful embrace would have been a part.

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[coralbandit]

The difference between wc and tank bred is water critieria.(period).
Fish are fish.
Apistos and rams belong in different temps as mentioned.
7degrees c is a large swing.....
Both fish also claim the same territory.
Without many line of site breaks and frequent re arranging I don't see multiple pairs working out for too long.
29 is TIGHT for 2 pair of anything if they breed.....
Depending on tank temp my money goes on the Apistos winning...

 

[LayzorBeams]

That was not my intention, My original question was whether 4 pairs of dwarf cichlids were to many. I was not sure, and you all chimed in, and I changed my plan to 2 pairs, and said I'd try it out-- These fish are not going to kill each immediately! They are all juveniles, very young; acquired from local breeders.

What I don't understand is there is lots of cover, heavily planted, and yet this tiny fish is going to kill all the inhabitants!?!? I've been keeping fish for a long time, These are my first cichlids, I've had them in separate tanks for several weeks, BUT this sounds like a lot of BS to me! IMO

Ok think of it this way. A 3" fish in a 29 gallon tank is basically proportional to a 7" fish in a 75. Not quite the same, but similar.

Ive had this scenario before. A 7" fish in my 75 went on a rampage, and killed basically everything. The fish looks pretty small overall in the tank, but its desire for territory made it kill everything even though i would've thought that the fishes had enough space. This was my first encounter with the aggression, and my worst.

Ive also had other bad experiences that involve fish barely bigger than yours in a tank thats about 3 times the size of yours. Read below.

Ive had growout 2" Firemouths in a 29. Two of them, with a small Syno i was growing. The Firemouths almost killed each other and did their very best to kill the Syno even though it hid the whole time.

When my Texas Cichlid was 5" he hunted down a Red Texas i had added. He proceeded to descale and kill it in front of me before i could get him out. In a 75 gallon.

A Red Devil i had living with an Oscar. I had just brought the RD home. They had been living together for almost an hour before the RD went on rampage and almost killed my Oscar. A 75 gallon tank.

A young Synspilum i kept for a few weeks was ganged up on and almost killed. The reason i only owned him for a few weeks is because he wouldve been killed eventually. No fish involved more than 4".

None of these fish were breeding at all. Very well fed, 2-3 large meals a day. Tons of hiding places, with about 15 feet of driftwood pieces throughout the tank as well as flowerpots and rock caves.
So if you think for more than about 12 seconds that a cichlid cant go on rampage at will and do its very best to kill... Well, you've got a lot to learn. And when they breed, aggression is increase tenfold. You are almost guaranteed to have a few deaths.

They may be compatible, but when you start to breed them you lose absolutely all definition of control. They are really out there to increase the chance of life for their offspring, and if that means to kill... They will.


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[Tropical Aquarist]

The difference between wc and tank bred is water critieria.(period).

Fish are fish.

Apistos and rams belong in different temps as mentioned.

7degrees c is a large swing.....

Both fish also claim the same territory.

Without many line of site breaks and frequent re arranging I don't see multiple pairs working out for too long.

29 is TIGHT for 2 pair of anything if they breed.....

Depending on tank temp my money goes on the Apistos winning...

http://seriouslyfish.com/species/Apistogramma-panduro/

This is what I was basing my research on, as this is a source I trust. They say under behavior and compatibility, that WC and TR fish behave very differently, of course water criteria is also different.

I don't understand the temperature thing, the range for the ram and the apisto is 23-29C, which means that should not be an issue. This tank is at ~26C/78F.

I understand that they both occupy the same territory, however this is a planted tank with lots of caves, so I THOUGHT it would be fine.

What would YOU do?

1) all ram, (how many though?)
2) all apisto(ditto)
3) 2 Rams and 2 panduros; (all male, or all females)
4)????

I appreciate the help

 

[Freakgecko91]

http://seriouslyfish.com/species/Apistogramma-panduro/

This is what I was basing my research on, as this is a source I trust. They say under behavior and compatibility, that WC and TR fish behave very differently, of course water criteria is also different.

I don't understand the temperature thing, the range for the ram and the apisto is 23-29C, which means that should not be an issue. This tank is at ~26C/78F.

I understand that they both occupy the same territory, however this is a planted tank with lots of caves, so I THOUGHT it would be fine.

What would YOU do?

1) all ram, (how many though?)
2) all apisto(ditto)
3) 2 Rams and 2 panduros; (all male, or all females)
4)????

I appreciate the help

I have kept tank raised panduro. Easily one of the meanest fish I've ever kept, and they weren't spawning. Now I have apisto cacatuoides, steel blue, and kelleri (known to be meaner than can be) and the panduro were hands down worse than all of these. I wouldn't even put panduro in with my uaru that are easily 4-5" now.

I would do a single pair of Rams, like everyone has suggested time after time. You keep asking the same question and expecting different results. Definition of insanity my friend

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[coralbandit]

22c is 71.6
29cis 84.2
Like I said pretty big difference from one end to the other????
The rams want over 80.....
The apisto 78 MAX.
Under 80 the rams will not fair as well IMO.
I would pick one pair of dwarf cichlid,and then look to another type fish.
Again IMO rams do best in species only tank,but they do not need to be kept this way.
2 pair of either apisto or GBR in a 29 will lead to one pair IMO...
Ask me how I know?

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

This morning I did notice some chasing, so they will be separated (I was aware that something like this could happen, I just wanted to try it out)
A few questions:

1)So since the tank is set up mainly for apistos(lots of caves), would there be any problems if I put the water cooler and just kept the 2 apistos with the tetras and danios?

2)Or would a species set up work better? What tank size would work for just the 2 apistos?

3) since everyone keeps saying the panduros are so aggressive, the breeder I got them from can trade for a pair of Borelli, Cacatuides, Mcmasteri or Aggassi. Would this be better for the 29gal community (just the pair, for cichlids)(no Rams)?

Thanks for bearing with me

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

2 pair of either apisto or GBR in a 29 will lead to one pair IMO...
Ask me how I know?

Do you mean the 1 pair will kill the other?

How big is your tank with all those Rams?

 

[Brookster123]

That will actually be "ok". It's tall enough to keep everyone away from each other..the danios will stay up top, tetras will stay midwater. I've heard of panduro chasing tetras but that's 50/50. Give it a try. Throw in some ludwiga repens for cover. Some crypts for ground cover..

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[Tropical Aquarist]

What about 2 and 3?

Also just curious, what would happen if you had 4 of one sex in this size tank?

 

[Brookster123]

What about 2 and 3?

Also just curious, what would happen if you had 4 of one sex in this size tank?

2m 3f panduro????

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[coralbandit]

Do you mean the 1 pair will kill the other?

How big is your tank with all those Rams?

There is always a strong chance of having a dominant pair when only two pair exist like if you were keeping only 2 of one type fish(not paired).

That tank is a 40b(36x18) with many pair that slowly all got moved out in order of dominance.
3-4 pair in a 40b is TIGHT...

What about 2 and 3?

Also just curious, what would happen if you had 4 of one sex in this size tank?

2m 3f panduro????

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2)Or would a species set up work better? What tank size would work for just the 2 apistos?

3) since everyone keeps saying the panduros are so aggressive, the breeder I got them from can trade for a pair of Borelli, Cacatuides, Mcmasteri or Aggassi. Would this be better for the 29gal community (just the pair, for cichlids)(no Rams)?

Thanks for bearing with me


^^Question/scenario #2 and 3 in previous post...
I'm not the apisto sp guy...That's B!

 

[Tropical Aquarist]

Oh I see, so they're all from the same spawn?

Yes I was referring to scenario 2 and 3.... Anyone?

Also Would you have the ludwiga floating?

I have tried it in here before but my lighting is rather dim (which is good for dwarf cichlids?) and I end up with a long stem with 4 leaves at the top.....

TY

 

[Brookster123]

No, they will most likely not tolerate more of the same. When mine spawned and I left some juvies in there, they were trying to get at the next spawn which was like pure chaos all the time.. female was stressed to the max..

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[Tropical Aquarist]

Ok I'm a bit confused....

The question about the spawn was for coral, I was meaning the Rams...

Also still have a few questions:
-Just the 2 panduros, what would be the minimum tank size?

-can the ludwiga be grown floating?

-what are the most peaceful apistos?