want rams, bad water, what to do?

[dax29]

I'm getting ready to restock my tank. I've grown tired of my black ruby and tiger barbs and I'm ready for more color and less motion. I'm taking back my barbs and one flying fox and I'm looking at dwarf gouramis and rams. The [acronym:9aa200dabd="Local Fish Store"]lfs[/acronym:9aa200dabd] has tanks full of blue rams and gold rams. However, I've heard that they don't do well in the hard, alkaline water that comes from my tap. Although the [acronym:9aa200dabd="Local Fish Store"]lfs[/acronym:9aa200dabd] is on the same water, I still don't think blue rams and gold rams will do well for extended periods in this water. My pH generally runs about 7.6-7.8. I've tested it with 3 different research-grade electronic pH meters and I get the same reading. Anyway, I wonder by adding more driftwood to the water if I can lower the pH enough. I'd settle for Bolivian rams if I could find some but I think they are quite rare. Any ideas from the forum would be appreciated.

[frog girl]

If its a matter of water softness for the rams (I am not sure never read about them) then the driftwood will lower your pH but will not remove the minerals in the water that make it hard. Driftwood or peat moss will also put tannins in the water that stain it a yellow brown color (doesn't hurt the fish but some folks don't like the look of it.

If rams like soft water your best bet is to use [acronym:a738cea0db="Reverse osmosis"]RO[/acronym:a738cea0db]. It is a pain to haul it though. If you have a planted tank you can get by with fewer water changes because the plants will suck up your nitrates (some better than others). If you go to the grocery store or a drinking water place that refills bottles the water is almost always [acronym:a738cea0db="Reverse osmosis"]RO[/acronym:a738cea0db]. Someone recently quoted $0.33 per gallon.

If you are up for adventure you could also build a solar still which will provide you with about 2 liters of distilled (very soft) water a day. You can just google it to get plans.

I think there are some plants that tend to soften water by taking out calcium carbonate (source of a lot of hardness) but I would imagine that it happens really slowly.

[JohnPaul]

You could consider filtering your water through peat moss; that is supposed to soften & acidify it some.

I suspect...and that's all it is...that what would be far most important to the rams is water quality in terms of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

You also might ask around to see if any of the store employees have Blue Rams themselves, and if so, how long they have kept them.

[Jchillin]

Here's a profile of the bolivan ram. I think the issue is varying [acronym:cc1799f92c="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:cc1799f92c] changes rather than a stable one. If your [acronym:cc1799f92c="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:cc1799f92c] remains stable, they could possibly kept in a higher [acronym:cc1799f92c="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:cc1799f92c].

http://fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/bolivian.xml

[mattrox]

Discus keepers have found that it is stable conditions rather than the specific values that matter. This is for keeping rather than breeding of course. Clean water goes without saying. Many discus keepers do daily 20-30 [acronym:a776dcae26="Partial water change"]pwc[/acronym:a776dcae26]'s. to keep water quality up. They often store water in a plastic tub with it being heated and vigourously circulated with a pump to ensure gasses are equalized with the atmosphere, to ensure tank pH and the pH of the new water are the same.
When breeding soft water is critical for a successful hatch.

Given that Discus and Rams come from similar regions and water conditions originally, I am going to make a few inferences. If others would like to comment I would be interested to hear it.

I suspect that if you do lots of water changes (like 3 x a week for example) and ensure stable pH that your water will be fine. After all Rams have been tank bred now for quite some time and will thrive in various conditions.

My Rams are happy as larry in pH 7.2 [acronym:a776dcae26="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:a776dcae26] 10 deg and [acronym:a776dcae26="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:a776dcae26] 3 Deg. No signs of stress and if looks like two are pairing up.

[dax29]

I appreciate all of your comments. I'll try to figure out something now.

[malkore]

Dax,

I spent $60 trying to keep blue rams for several months...but just had no luck. They are very sensitive to nitrites, but as long as the tank is cycled, that's not an issue.

I would say that Rams are sensitive to higher alkalinity, AND pH changes. My tap water looks like this: pH 7.8 dKh 9 dGh 11

About every time I would perform a 25% water change, I'd have a dead german blue ram within 2 days.

[dax29]

I've just about decided that I can't have blue rams. I think Bolivian rams would work but I don't think I can find any. I'll stick with gouramis, loaches, and other fish. I just posted another message concerning re-stocking my tank. Let me know what you think.

My 75 gallon tank has a consistent pH of 7.75 and moderately hard water. I have three Rams - two Germans (Blues) and one Gold - and after a bit of acclimation they all have done very well in my tank. No problems whatsoever. So I believe what is being said about having a stable environment moreso than correct water parameters is true.

In my case this applies to more than the Rams. I have all sorts of fish in my community tank that are "soft, acidic water" types and have thrived in my tank. None have surprised me more than my Cardinal tetras and Rams, both of which I thought would have problems.

[mattrox]

With water with a high [acronym:3f7bf75e50="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:3f7bf75e50] it is almost imperative to allow the dissolved gases to equilirate with the atmosphere before water changes to ensure no pH change after a [acronym:3f7bf75e50="Partial water change"]pwc[/acronym:3f7bf75e50].

Fish sensitive to pH swings will suffer as a result. This is one of the most given piece of advice on discus forums about keeping them healthy...... I suspect many S. American fish will cope better in these conditions.