Water and Substrate

[CEverii]

Ok so in a chichlid tank, what is overall a better substrate to go with, gravel, or sand?

Also, for water, am I going to be using tap water with dechlorinator, or is there something special I should be throwing in there as well.

 

[mattrox]

Some African cichlids like to sift sand making sand a desirable substrate. I use pool filter sand. It is relatively cheap.

I have also used 3mm round gravel before and that worked too.

Just check your pH and kh with your tap water to see that it is in a suitable range.

 

[gil]

I'm using pool filter sand, 9 bucks for 50 pounds and since I put it in my mbuna fish are more active digging and rearranging the landscape, it's actually fun to watch them dig their own little hide spots.

 

[HN1]

What type of cichlids specifically?

 

[CEverii]

What type of cichlids specifically?

TBH I'm not sure. There is a guy near me who is a Cichlid only dealer. Claims he all his fish are "F1" and the ebst fish your going to get in the area.

I'm not sure what kind they are, but they are pretty pricey. I'm talking minimum $6 for the small ones. Usually they are between $10-$15 per fish.

I'm gonna take a trip down there this weekend and ask him what kind of cichlids that he specalizes in.

 

[DragonFish71]

I've used all different sizes of gravel and currently have pool filter sand in 2 out of 3 cichlid tanks. My 3rd tank has 3M black color quartz "T" grade. The firemouths love digging in it. I've also had larger cichlids that loved to play with river rocks. So really it depends on what look you're going for and what type of cichlid you want.

I don't use anything but Prime (dechlorinator) in my cichlid tanks and everyone is happy.

 

[Marconis]

For my cichlids, I stuck with sand. There are several reasons for this...

1)The rift lakes are mainly composed of a sandy bottom
2)Africans sift through the sand
3)Fry tend to burrow under the rocks

For my first cichlid tank I actually went through various sands. First I got pool filter sand, which was about $12 for a 50lb bag. It was pretty heavy so it didn't get sucked up into the filters too much. Then I got some extremely light-weight bright white marine type sand...it sucked. Then I got Tahitian Moon sand...got bored of it, looked unnatural.

Once I upped to a 72 gallon, I just got a 100lbs of playsand for $6. It is darker in color than pool filter sand, and also more lightweight so you need to watch for that.


Overall, sand is the way to go!

 

[mgamer20o0]

TBH I'm not sure. There is a guy near me who is a Cichlid only dealer. Claims he all his fish are "F1" and the ebst fish your going to get in the area.

I'm not sure what kind they are, but they are pretty pricey. I'm talking minimum $6 for the small ones. Usually they are between $10-$15 per fish.

I'm gonna take a trip down there this weekend and ask him what kind of cichlids that he specalizes in.

good idea before you start buying.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Sand. It is MUCH more natural and a lot cleaner. I always use and recommend Estes' Marine Sand Ultra Reef. It is about the cost of gravel and a lot better than cheapo stuff not made for aquariums. It is clean, uniform in size, sinks fast, and comes in different colors. I prefer either solid black or black and white mixed. If fish are on a dark background and substrate they will physiologically produce more pigment and be more colorful.

Effectively all the natural environments our fish come from have substrates of sand (or finer), not gravel.

 

[HN1]

Sand. It is MUCH more natural and a lot cleaner. I always use and recommend Estes' Marine Sand Ultra Reef. It is about the cost of gravel and a lot better than cheapo stuff not made for aquariums. It is clean, uniform in size, sinks fast, and comes in different colors. I prefer either solid black or black and white mixed. If fish are on a dark background and substrate they will physiologically produce more pigment and be more colorful.

Effectively all the natural environments our fish come from have substrates of sand (or finer), not gravel.

Not true at all for a lot of fish in the hobby. Leaf packs and silt are much more common. Rocks aren't really prevalent and sand is even tougher to find in the amazon and the major Asian watersheds. Rocks and gravel are more of a CA substrate. If you go with sand, go with PFS for economy or dry aragonite (if buffering up). Marine Ultra reef sounds cool, but it's a crock and completely unneccessary. Especially in a FW cichlid tank.

 

[Fishguy2727]

I specifically said the environments have sand or finer (meaning silt or mud). Very few aquatic environments have gravel sized or rocky substrates.

If buffering is your goal than simply put a little crushed coral/aragonite in a media bag in your filter. The flow will make it more effective than an entire bed of aragonite (form my experience).

I have talked to way too many people who have had way too many problems with PFS and other non-aquairum use sands to ever recommend it. These problems range from brown algae problems from the silicates in these substrates, never being able to get them clean, varying particle sizes including too small to sink quickly getting into filters and burning them out, etc.

Colors options are also one with PFS. What I recommend comes in white, black, blue, and beige. Darker substrates will cause fish to physiologically create more pigment (and it will show off better).

It is not calcium based so it is perfectly safe in freshwater. It is silica based but has a polymer coat to prevent the silicates from causing algae or other chemistry problems.

I sold it by the case at the LFS I was running and not a single customer who ever bought it ever complained. I had MANY come in thanking me and telling me about how much they liked it (and we all know that one compliment in retail is harder to find than ten complaints).

Personally I feel that if you have not tried it then let us know the experience you are basing your claims on.

It is not expensive. More than PFS, yes. But it runs about the cost of gravel and if that is expensive then you are in the wrong hobby.

 

[HN1]

I specifically said the environments have sand or finer (meaning silt or mud). Very few aquatic environments have gravel sized or rocky substrates. False. I'd say it's probably equal. Think about a NA/CA environ.

If buffering is your goal than simply put a little crushed coral/aragonite in a media bag in your filter. The flow will make it more effective than an entire bed of aragonite (form my experience).
Totally agree.

I have talked to way too many people who have had way too many problems with PFS and other non-aquairum use sands to ever recommend it. These problems range from brown algae problems from the silicates in these substrates, never being able to get them clean, varying particle sizes including too small to sink quickly getting into filters and burning them out, etc.

Never had a problem and I have at least 40 tanks with PFS in them. It's less than $10 per 50# and has worked great for us, so I will continue to recommend it.

Colors options are also one with PFS. What I recommend comes in white, black, blue, and beige. Darker substrates will cause fish to physiologically create more pigment (and it will show off better).

Shop around. Even PFS comes in variety, not just one option.

It is not calcium based so it is perfectly safe in freshwater. It is silica based but has a polymer coat to prevent the silicates from causing algae or other chemistry problems.

Algae or chemistry problems? Never seen it and like I said, we have a lot of tanks that have never had issues.

I sold it by the case at the LFS I was running and not a single customer who ever bought it ever complained. I had MANY come in thanking me and telling me about how much they liked it (and we all know that one compliment in retail is harder to find than ten complaints).

That's cool, but running an LFS and getting rave reviews from their customer base doesn't and won't impress me. The same people are routinely sold inappropriate fish and unnecessary equipment at the LFS.

Personally I feel that if you have not tried it then let us know the experience you are basing your claims on.

The experience I'm basing it on... hmmm... We're running 60+ FW tanks, a couple reefs, breeding a myriad of species, retailing, and everything I've posted has been based on actual experience. I have thoroughly dedicated my adult life to aquatics and think of little else. I've attended many major conventions and had / have personal conversations and relationships with some very big hobby names. What are you basing your claims on? "Running" an LFS, being a vet tech, or a student?

It is not expensive. More than PFS, yes. But it runs about the cost of gravel and if that is expensive then you are in the wrong hobby.

The beauty of this hobby is that we can all have different opinions and experiences. Mine are in blue.

 

[Fishguy2727]

But have you tried the product I recommended?

 

[HN1]

No, I haven't. Estes is one of the lowest tiered brands and I haven't tried any of their products since I watched their gravel leach and lose color. Have you tried PFS? What brand?

 

[Fishguy2727]

None. I heard about all the problems from others and went with the Estes' sand. Their gravel has gotten better (I know exactly what you are talking about), and the sand is better.

What brand PFS do you use?
What colors does it come in?

I am only trying to let people know there are more options out there. I hope I can do so without having my opinion and experience negated simply because you do not agree. In my experience using it it is the perfect option for a substrate in almost any tank (except for big fish who would kick it into filters just by swimming or cichlids who enjoy spitting it directly into filter intakes). If I came across disrespectful of your experience and opinion I did not mean to.

 

[HN1]

None. I heard about all the problems from others and went with the Estes' sand. Their gravel has gotten better (I know exactly what you are talking about), and the sand is better.

What brand PFS do you use?
What colors does it come in?

I am only trying to let people know there are more options out there. I hope I can do so without having my opinion and experience negated simply because you do not agree. In my experience using it it is the perfect option for a substrate in almost any tank (except for big fish who would kick it into filters just by swimming or cichlids who enjoy spitting it directly into filter intakes). If I came across disrespectful of your experience and opinion I did not mean to.

I'll have to get the maker's name. The pool supply that I patronize only stocks "mystic white", but will order varieties from blue to red to black. I have no clue why the color of sand in a pool filter would matter to people.

No worries. I wouldn't "negate" anything. In fact, I'm curious and have been surfing reviews and pricing. lol I'm all about options. There are almost always multiple ways to achieve the same results. I was simply expressing my own opinion in favor of an option which you spoke negatively about and don't mean to sound disrespectful either. I apologize if I have. I will always speak against absolutes though.

 

[Fishguy2727]

One of the things I think is the most important is grain size and uniformity. The Ultra Reef is large (for a sand) and VERY uniform. This helps prevent sand compact which is bad for plant roots and toxic gas pockets (never had problems with either. The plants love it actually. I had never heard of the different colors for PFS, good to know. Here are a couple pics, one shows a goldfish tank I had with this sand and how well the plants did. The other should give an idea of the grain size. Try the black next time you get some, I think it looks much better and shows the fish off better.

 

[BillD]

I have one tank set up with black blasting sand, and am not convinced it is better than gravel. It looks good when clean, but, while I like the look of black gravel, it isn't particularly natural looking. I don't like the look of the salt and pepper sand in the pic. Natural looking PFS is available from Sand and Gravel Water Filtration Media - Red Flint . A 50lb bag of natural aquarium gravel costs about $6.50, blasting sand $10 for 88lb, and silica a little less. The cost of this hobby is important to me, and getting items a lower price is a boon to me. I won't spend the money on a cannister filter, when I can put together a 75 gallon setup for less than the price of the filter for that tank, as an example.