Yet another Bolivian ram sexing question

[dogdoc]

I am sorry to post this here, and I swear I've looked at every picture on just about every forum there is on sexing Bolivians, and STILL not sure of the sex of one of my rams.

Obtained first ram about 2.5 months ago, and so certain a male as he is vibrant colors, dorsal spike etc. Today got a second Bolivian thinking it's female ( now quite certain it's male) and comparing the two, back to wondering if my first fish is a very vibrant female ( rounded belly, prominent ventrical). I would so appreciate someone who knows more than me take a look as see. Sorry again.
Hoping for a male/female pair. Eventually.

 

[dogdoc]

This is the fish in question...having trouble uploading pics

 

[dogdoc]

last attempt

 

[dogdoc]

Middle fish is the fish in question. Bottom fish I'm pretty sure is male. If I keep him I shall name him "homely".

 

[cbourg746]

Middle fish is the fish in question. Bottom fish I'm pretty sure is male. If I keep him I shall name him "homely".

I'm up in the air on this one. The finnage leans toward female but the lack of spangles in the black dot on the side makes me think male.

 

[dogdoc]

In the top pic, the fish on the bottom is the old fish. Color-wise it's hard to believe they're the same species, but maybe the new fish will color up when he's feeling a little less stressed. He's currently not getting a very warm welcome...
he/she's kinda *****y.

 

[Borderlesscott]

I would say the one with the dark spot is a female if you go by the jaw shape, the other is a male - really can't tell with Bolivians fins until fully matured its really hard to tell sometimes with these guys. There is a marked difference in lower jaw/chin shape in my breeding Bolivians, males tend to have a slightly bulkier rounded chin.

 

[Borderlesscott]

Don't worry about a bit of fighting, my 2 pairs take turns partner beating - males seem to come of worse, but never seems to cause injury or much stress as minutes later there back guarding eggs or being lovey dovey with each other. They also make really good parents, religiously guarding the eggs and fry up until about 3 weeks when the process starts again.

 

[Tetra1990]

last attempt

The 3rd picture is a male. Look at the tails. Males have trailers on the top and bottom.

 

[Borderlesscott]

Not to add to the confusion, my female has 1cm trails from her tail, the males are much longer but only when they mature

 

[dogdoc]

Thanks guys. Neither of these guys has tail fin trailers ( deceiving in picture). The smaller, paler one is quite immature compared to my first ( the brightly colored one). I am starting to suspect that my first 'male' is the girl, and the new 'girl' addition is male. She/he's still chasing him around the tank and he's got stress spots. Hope it stops soon.

Do all mature Bolivian males ( and some of the females apparently) get tail banners?
Tara

 

[Borderlesscott]

All males should have trails, the females have very little to none, around 2cm is the longest I've seen on a female.