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Old 12-02-2012, 06:36 PM   #21
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Well, at this point, it really comes down to an idealogical difference. I don't understand your hostility towards the idea that proper care may include more than temperature, salinity, and diet. At no point have I made any claim of definitive proof that every fish species in the world experiences this phenomenon. So please, calm down and stop accusing me of "passing on ideas which are not based on any kind of evidence". Just because you disagree with the evidence or its relevance does not justify saying there is none.
But then again, as I wrote at the end of my previous post, I wasn't writing to you. I hope the OP has an open mind and looks at all the angles before making a decision. I shall continue to err on the side of caution when it comes to my fish.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #22
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I agree with bits and pieces of what each of you are saying, but I feel that some of the guidelines set for tank sizes make sense. Why not go with them? Best case scenario, they are right and you have healthier fish. Worst case scenario, they are off and you have supplied them with an oversized ecosystem. Ignoring those guidelines leads to the possibility of having a fish in an environment that is detrimental to their overall health and they stress and/or die. I'm not sure that every person in this hobby knows what an unhealthy fish is until it is too late.

There are so many spectacular saltwater fish to choose from, I do not see the point in choosing to put a fish into a questionable environment. This goes for Tangs, Angels, wrasses, etc.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:36 PM   #23
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Well said.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:46 PM   #24
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+1 I agree. I am tired of arguing this with newbies over and over. Had one tell me it didn't matter, he was buying tangs anyway for his small tank. Because he wanted one.

Been raising tangs 30 years. Guess he was smarter than I was, so good luck to him. At least you are discussing it first before making the move. Tangs WILL die if stressed and they will take other fish with them. That's a fact. And even little tangs will stress if the environment isn't right for them. Newbies always complain about their tangs having ich. They don't get ich if well fed and comfortable in their surroundings. If you truly love tangs, set up a tank where they can flourish rather than wait for the day when you flush that beautiful fish. Until then there are hundreds of fish that could care less about the size of your tank.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:52 PM   #25
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And therein lies my point, how do you know what minimum size is? Every resource & poster has their own opinion, but many tout them as law. Some say 4' min, 6' min, 100 gals, 125 gals, 180 gals etc etc etc.

I totally agree that fish need an appropriate size tank, my point is only that the minimum requirements passed on are as mythical as the reasons used to justify them.

As previously stated, proper feeding will keep aggression and territoriality minimized, grazing opportunity will keep the need to roam down.

Really, every fish owner SHOULD be able to tell if a fish is healthy or not. Maybe instead of arbitrary tank sizes based largely on myth and opinion, we shift the focus onto maintaining overall health of EVERY fish in our systems.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by MikeYQM
And therein lies my point, how do you know what minimum size is? Every resource & poster has their own opinion, but many tout them as law. Some say 4' min, 6' min, 100 gals, 125 gals, 180 gals etc etc etc.

I totally agree that fish need an appropriate size tank, my point is only that the minimum requirements passed on are as mythical as the reasons used to justify them.

As previously stated, proper feeding will keep aggression and territoriality minimized, grazing opportunity will keep the need to roam down.

Really, every fish owner SHOULD be able to tell if a fish is healthy or not. Maybe instead of arbitrary tank sizes based largely on myth and opinion, we shift the focus onto maintaining overall health of EVERY fish in our systems.
So many bad assumptions. These arguments are based on wishful thinking, not reality.

The reasons used to justify keeping large fish in large tanks isn't mythical, it's practical. People don't keep large tangs in small tanks because sooner or later they die. Nothing mythical about that.

Proper feeding will not control the behavior or aggression of a territorial fish whose territory spans most of a tank.

Most new to the hobby fish keepers can't tell when every fish is stressed or ill. They need a point of reference and experience.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:10 PM   #27
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Tank size is only one consideration and not necessarily the primary one. Water quality, tank mates, feeding etc are all to be taken into account.

Another perfect example of this is mandarins. Many people claim you NEED X size tank or X amount of live rock, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Trained to eat prepared foods, or stocked with pods you could comfortably put a pair in a 30 gallon tank.

Would I recommend a newbie put a pair in a 30 gal, or a tang or 2 in a 65 like the OP? Not necessarily but I would strongly caution them to ensure their other needs be met. If you want to take a lesser-faire approach to fish keeping, then yes, a much larger tank is needed to ensure pos populations or grazing algae on rocks are present.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by CorallineAlgae View Post

So many bad assumptions. These arguments are based on wishful thinking, not reality.
Why are fish territorial? To protect feeding or breeding grounds. Clownfish, for example, are quite territorial in even moderately sized tanks because they are protective of their breeding grounds, but that's something we can only provide to them by way of volume. Why is it that territorial fish will even share an algae clip? Because there is an abundance of food at that point. If you routinely fed a 1/2" piece of algae on that clip you would likely see aggression.

Why do tangs cover large areas in nature? Because of their grazing diets and likely to avoid predation.

That's not wishful thinking. Like humans, much of the behavior of fish is a combination of nature & nurture. An old tang, used to his territory will be likely to be more aggressive in a smaller tank. A juvenile, who has never had to protect a territory, may have some instinct to but once it realizes that the NEED to do so isn't there, it's far less likely to occur. Again, look at Mandarins. Captive bred specimens are far more likely to eat prepared foods, because while there is SOME instinct to eat small moving prey, the lifelong experience needing to do so isn't there. I've had much more ease training younger mandarins to eat prepared foods than older/larger ones.

For any fish, if you step back and look at WHY it has a particular need, it's far easier to provide for that need without any need for arbitrary, opinion based rules.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #29
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Mike, I'm afraid I have to agree with corallinealgae. You're making a lot of assumptions. The tanks suggestions are not mythical, they are based on decades of trial and error. Your mileage will vary, which is why the suggestions vary. But they weren't conjured from thin air.
Fish are territorial for many reasons, most of them can be summed up in a single word: genetics. While you can curtail some aggression to an extent, a fish that is genetically predisposed to be (for lack of a better word) a jerk will not magically become a perfect gentlefish just because he is well fed. You can meet all of a tang's dietary and water quality requirements in a ten gallon tank with a lot of work. This will be a very short lived fish because they need space to exhibit their natural behavior. Not just foraging, but a sort of sprint that is generally cut short by anything less than six feet.
These are not "arbitrary opinion based rules" at all. They are guidelines formed after decades of observation and experimentation across the globe. Now, I'm sorry if you think you know better than everyone else, but insisting vehemently that anyone who thinks tangs need space is just flat out wrong, rude, and a recipe for new fish keeper heartache.
Since your first post on this thread you have been rude, confrontational, and insulting. You have stated your opinion. There is no need to get so uppity. Some of us disagree with your premises and your conclusions. Deal with it.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #30
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I agree that some sites will quote different sizes, but when you look at enough and get a general consensus, with a couple going smaller, I tend to think the ones going smaller are looking to make some extra cash by offering their wares to a larger crowd.

To me, using common sense (as I do not get into the scientific aspects of pheromones and such), I go with the philosophy that if I have a tank, the inhabitants that I purchase should be "comfortable" at full-grown size. Putting large fish in a smaller tank makes no sense. Sure that Emperor angel or Threadfin snapper will fit in a 60 gallon now, but its not going to do them any good in the long run.

Maintaining proper feeding, parameters, etc is controllable and essential. Even with those perfect, tank size being off will cause problems. It's just not worth the risk to me. I'd rather go with what is likely to work, not leave it to hoping it will work.
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