Advice

[MacDracor]

Well, at this point, it really comes down to an idealogical difference. I don't understand your hostility towards the idea that proper care may include more than temperature, salinity, and diet. At no point have I made any claim of definitive proof that every fish species in the world experiences this phenomenon. So please, calm down and stop accusing me of "passing on ideas which are not based on any kind of evidence". Just because you disagree with the evidence or its relevance does not justify saying there is none.
But then again, as I wrote at the end of my previous post, I wasn't writing to you. I hope the OP has an open mind and looks at all the angles before making a decision. I shall continue to err on the side of caution when it comes to my fish.

 

[TheTodd]

I agree with bits and pieces of what each of you are saying, but I feel that some of the guidelines set for tank sizes make sense. Why not go with them? Best case scenario, they are right and you have healthier fish. Worst case scenario, they are off and you have supplied them with an oversized ecosystem. Ignoring those guidelines leads to the possibility of having a fish in an environment that is detrimental to their overall health and they stress and/or die. I'm not sure that every person in this hobby knows what an unhealthy fish is until it is too late.

There are so many spectacular saltwater fish to choose from, I do not see the point in choosing to put a fish into a questionable environment. This goes for Tangs, Angels, wrasses, etc.

 

[MacDracor]

Well said.

 

[Gregcoyote]

+1 I agree. I am tired of arguing this with newbies over and over. Had one tell me it didn't matter, he was buying tangs anyway for his small tank. Because he wanted one.

Been raising tangs 30 years. Guess he was smarter than I was, so good luck to him. At least you are discussing it first before making the move. Tangs WILL die if stressed and they will take other fish with them. That's a fact. And even little tangs will stress if the environment isn't right for them. Newbies always complain about their tangs having ich. They don't get ich if well fed and comfortable in their surroundings. If you truly love tangs, set up a tank where they can flourish rather than wait for the day when you flush that beautiful fish. Until then there are hundreds of fish that could care less about the size of your tank.

 

[MikeYQM]

And therein lies my point, how do you know what minimum size is? Every resource & poster has their own opinion, but many tout them as law. Some say 4' min, 6' min, 100 gals, 125 gals, 180 gals etc etc etc.

I totally agree that fish need an appropriate size tank, my point is only that the minimum requirements passed on are as mythical as the reasons used to justify them.

As previously stated, proper feeding will keep aggression and territoriality minimized, grazing opportunity will keep the need to roam down.

Really, every fish owner SHOULD be able to tell if a fish is healthy or not. Maybe instead of arbitrary tank sizes based largely on myth and opinion, we shift the focus onto maintaining overall health of EVERY fish in our systems.

 

[CorallineAlgae]

And therein lies my point, how do you know what minimum size is? Every resource & poster has their own opinion, but many tout them as law. Some say 4' min, 6' min, 100 gals, 125 gals, 180 gals etc etc etc.

I totally agree that fish need an appropriate size tank, my point is only that the minimum requirements passed on are as mythical as the reasons used to justify them.

As previously stated, proper feeding will keep aggression and territoriality minimized, grazing opportunity will keep the need to roam down.

Really, every fish owner SHOULD be able to tell if a fish is healthy or not. Maybe instead of arbitrary tank sizes based largely on myth and opinion, we shift the focus onto maintaining overall health of EVERY fish in our systems.

So many bad assumptions. These arguments are based on wishful thinking, not reality.

The reasons used to justify keeping large fish in large tanks isn't mythical, it's practical. People don't keep large tangs in small tanks because sooner or later they die. Nothing mythical about that.

Proper feeding will not control the behavior or aggression of a territorial fish whose territory spans most of a tank.

Most new to the hobby fish keepers can't tell when every fish is stressed or ill. They need a point of reference and experience.

 

[MikeYQM]

Tank size is only one consideration and not necessarily the primary one. Water quality, tank mates, feeding etc are all to be taken into account.

Another perfect example of this is mandarins. Many people claim you NEED X size tank or X amount of live rock, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Trained to eat prepared foods, or stocked with pods you could comfortably put a pair in a 30 gallon tank.

Would I recommend a newbie put a pair in a 30 gal, or a tang or 2 in a 65 like the OP? Not necessarily but I would strongly caution them to ensure their other needs be met. If you want to take a lesser-faire approach to fish keeping, then yes, a much larger tank is needed to ensure pos populations or grazing algae on rocks are present.

 

[MikeYQM]

So many bad assumptions. These arguments are based on wishful thinking, not reality.

Why are fish territorial? To protect feeding or breeding grounds. Clownfish, for example, are quite territorial in even moderately sized tanks because they are protective of their breeding grounds, but that's something we can only provide to them by way of volume. Why is it that territorial fish will even share an algae clip? Because there is an abundance of food at that point. If you routinely fed a 1/2" piece of algae on that clip you would likely see aggression.

Why do tangs cover large areas in nature? Because of their grazing diets and likely to avoid predation.

That's not wishful thinking. Like humans, much of the behavior of fish is a combination of nature & nurture. An old tang, used to his territory will be likely to be more aggressive in a smaller tank. A juvenile, who has never had to protect a territory, may have some instinct to but once it realizes that the NEED to do so isn't there, it's far less likely to occur. Again, look at Mandarins. Captive bred specimens are far more likely to eat prepared foods, because while there is SOME instinct to eat small moving prey, the lifelong experience needing to do so isn't there. I've had much more ease training younger mandarins to eat prepared foods than older/larger ones.

For any fish, if you step back and look at WHY it has a particular need, it's far easier to provide for that need without any need for arbitrary, opinion based rules.

 

[MacDracor]

Mike, I'm afraid I have to agree with corallinealgae. You're making a lot of assumptions. The tanks suggestions are not mythical, they are based on decades of trial and error. Your mileage will vary, which is why the suggestions vary. But they weren't conjured from thin air.
Fish are territorial for many reasons, most of them can be summed up in a single word: genetics. While you can curtail some aggression to an extent, a fish that is genetically predisposed to be (for lack of a better word) a jerk will not magically become a perfect gentlefish just because he is well fed. You can meet all of a tang's dietary and water quality requirements in a ten gallon tank with a lot of work. This will be a very short lived fish because they need space to exhibit their natural behavior. Not just foraging, but a sort of sprint that is generally cut short by anything less than six feet.
These are not "arbitrary opinion based rules" at all. They are guidelines formed after decades of observation and experimentation across the globe. Now, I'm sorry if you think you know better than everyone else, but insisting vehemently that anyone who thinks tangs need space is just flat out wrong, rude, and a recipe for new fish keeper heartache.
Since your first post on this thread you have been rude, confrontational, and insulting. You have stated your opinion. There is no need to get so uppity. Some of us disagree with your premises and your conclusions. Deal with it.

 

[TheTodd]

I agree that some sites will quote different sizes, but when you look at enough and get a general consensus, with a couple going smaller, I tend to think the ones going smaller are looking to make some extra cash by offering their wares to a larger crowd.

To me, using common sense (as I do not get into the scientific aspects of pheromones and such), I go with the philosophy that if I have a tank, the inhabitants that I purchase should be "comfortable" at full-grown size. Putting large fish in a smaller tank makes no sense. Sure that Emperor angel or Threadfin snapper will fit in a 60 gallon now, but its not going to do them any good in the long run.

Maintaining proper feeding, parameters, etc is controllable and essential. Even with those perfect, tank size being off will cause problems. It's just not worth the risk to me. I'd rather go with what is likely to work, not leave it to hoping it will work.

 

[MacDracor]

Yes they do. And different recipes for meatloaf often have different baking temperatures. Does that mean we should disregard turning the oven on?
Take suggestions with a grain of reef salt, but don't disregard them completely. And certainly don't suggest to novices that they ignore them! That's just irresponsible.

 

[TheTodd]

Bringing this all back to the OP...your Tangs will need greens. They will probably eat anything presented, but meaty stuff is not as healthy for them. They will probably also be okay for a while being in a smaller tank. It's not near ideal, but probably not deadly either. Adding them all at once could cause spikes, so watch your parameters. That could be deadly.

In the end, yes, some info out there seems arbitrary, but when all else fails, use common sense. Both of those Tangs will get big and that will eventually cause problems. I will guess Ich being a common one. That will subject other fish to that in your tank and it will be continual QT or death. Why subject them to that when there are so many other great fish out there that would work in your tank?

 

[Gregcoyote]

My comments are everything but arbitrary. They are based on decades of experience and the experience of my marine biologist friends I dive with. If you don't care to listen to me...that is fine, but don't attempt to justify your desires by discrediting my information. If you want a tang, go buy it. Just don't whine when it develops ICH. Mandarines are another example of people wanting to believe they have the time and expertise to keep this little fish for its natural life span. 90% of you do not. There are the lucky ones, but in general most of these fish go into the toilet. Same with tangs. Some on this forum announce they have just bought their 2nd or third ones after the previous ones died. What do you think has changed? On any forum, experience counts. It is where the value of the forum lies, other than showing off pictures. When a newbie wants to argue with someone with years of experience and thousands of posts, they are taking their own chances and need to learn the hard way. I just wish it didn't kill off fish. It's the sole reason I closed my LFS, I got tired of people marching in with zero experience, but loads of attitude. The name of this thread is "advice." not "let's argue about my insistence I will have a tang."

 

[Godfrey]

In addition to all the greens that are out there for feeding tangs I know a person who breeds blue tangs and he feeds them romaine lettuce and they go nuts for it! He says almost all tangs will devour it?

 

[MacDracor]

Romaine isn't a bad fish food, so long as marine based greens are in there too. Just avoid things like iceberg lettuce that has almost no nutritional value.

 

[TheTodd]

+1 to the romaine. My tangs used to love it. I would do mostly seaweed/algae and then throw some lettuce once a week to let them graze on during the day. I was told variety is good for them, just not necessary.

 

[MacDracor]

It really depends on your definition of necessary. A human can live for decades in a closet fed nothing but water and vitamin enriched spirulina. But they wouldn't be healthy. Variety is very important to fish. One way to ensure variety is to make one's own fish food. I did this, and this fishy muck contains anything and everything an omnivore of the ocean could ever want. I through in some live macro algae for the foxface to make sure he gets everything he needs. I rotate between four types.

 

[MikeYQM]

Agree to the home made food & adding variety. If a person ate microwave dinners every day they might maintain weight but wouldn't be terrible healthy overall. Fresh or frozen homemade food is unprocessed, you can choose your ingredients and its not all that hard to do.

While I do feed flake & pellet along with algae sheets & live, frozen and home made food, I look at my dogs for the reasoning. Dog food, being highly processed, contains many fillers which are highly indigestible by them - corn for example. I feed them grain free foods and they eat less/produce less waste. I figure its likely that fish are the same. Less waste is always good.