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Old 04-23-2004, 02:15 PM   #1
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Best Way To Lower Nitrates??

I have a 35 gallon hexagon tank with a powerquad 96 lighting system. I have about 25 pounds of live rock and my nitrates are between 10 and 15. Is there a way to lower them without getting more Live rock...thanks ryan
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Old 04-23-2004, 02:52 PM   #2
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Live rock does not lower your NO3 or PO4 levels. This can only be done by phycial removal by means of bio filtration via plants or mechanical means such as a reactor or a skimmer. Water changes can reduce the levels but only temporaly. You really need to find the source or cause of your increased levels of Nitrates.. ie Tap water, overfeeding.. dead spots in LR beds which collect detris and uneaten food, etc..
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Old 04-23-2004, 02:59 PM   #3
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Quote:
Live rock does not lower your NO3
??
With enough LR your nitrate will be zero.
Quote:
Is there a way to lower them without getting more Live rock
Not as efficiently. You could spring for a nitrate removal filter which requires very low flow and high maintenance. Regular large water changes willhelp keep it in check but will not effectively remove it. LR is the way to go to remove nitrate.
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:02 PM   #4
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How bout bio-load..How many fish? and what are they?
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anemoneman
Quote:
Live rock does not lower your NO3
??
With enough LR your nitrate will be zero.
Quote:
Is there a way to lower them without getting more Live rock
Not as efficiently. You could spring for a nitrate removal filter which requires very low flow and high maintenance. Regular large water changes willhelp keep it in check but will not effectively remove it. LR is the way to go to remove nitrate.
Nitrates are only consumed by plants, algae or mechanical device.
Nitrites and ammonia are consumed by PODS and other Bio organisms and turned into Nitrates..
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:28 PM   #6
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Eric Borneman wrote a nice little article a while back about the Nitro cycle..

When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So liverock is the substrate for all this stuff, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things. Mostly, marine animals and plants don;t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock form a tank, or the well-treated aquacultured stuff, you have live rock that has either relatively free of anything alive, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won;t survive in the tank. From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivavles, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria...most of whcih is dead and will decompose, or which will die and decompose. This is where the exisitng bacteria get kick started...

Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decompositon happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia cause there are enough bacteria present to keep upwitht he nitrogen being released by the dying stuff....does not mean things are finished decomposing.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds...prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is gonna take a while. OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Ooops. And, denitrification is a slow process. Guess what else...bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is aleady a huge population...so you never test ammonia..."The water tests fine"

But, all these swings are happening...every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening. Eventually, they slow and stabilize. What's left? A tank with limited denitrification and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives? The next fastest growing groups...cyano's, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae. Turfs get mowed dow by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up cause they have a food source. Maybe you've boght some snails by now, too. And a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.

So, the algae succession kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell cause they keep dying and they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added abunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn;t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.

About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more powerheads, understand water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there.

So, ecologically, this is successional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer speices that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work. Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvirograting the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbacne hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...theya re stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.

This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax xommunity happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:44 PM   #7
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Even a better article on DOCs

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...=3077&cid=3793
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Old 04-23-2004, 03:55 PM   #8
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I have never heard of LR removing nitrates either.
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Old 04-23-2004, 05:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Live rock does not lower your NO3 or PO4 levels.
While true that LR doesn't lower nitrates itself, porous LR does provide surface area for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria to grow on. These bacteria, through anaerobic respiration, will breakdown nitrates into nitrogen gas and nitrous oxide. These are the same bacteria that can thrive in deep sand beds. There is not a bacterial pathway for the removal of phosphates that I am aware of.
If you do not want to put in more LR or LS then I would first try to determine where the nitrates and phosphates are coming from. Are you using tapwater or RO water as your water source? Tap water can contain high levels of both nitrate and/or phosphate. A good way to find out if the contaminants are coming from outside the tank, test your tap or RO water, test your freshly made up SW. If the tap or RO is okay but the SW is high in either, find a better salt mix. I think you get the picture.
Inside the tank, if you have a high bioload or overfeed this can lead to high nitrates or phosphates. Post some more info about your tank and go from there.
I think your best bet for getting these nutrients down would be to add some macroalgae to the tank that utilize the PO4 and/or NO3 and then trim it back every few weeks. The plants will take the nutrients out of the water, and you cutting them will remove the nutrients from your system.
That's a nice article, but I don't find that it explains the nitrogen cycle very well
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Old 04-23-2004, 06:02 PM   #10
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do more frequent water changes, do not over feed, do not feed frozen brine shrimp. They are notorious for raising nitrates.
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