Chance to replace substrate (CC) - Suggestions?

[amahler]

We're fallowing our 90 gallon to deal with ich. While the fishy inhabitants are at the Cupramine Spa, we've got a chance to do more disruptive stuff in our main.

I'll be adding more LR in the next few weeks, but I'd also like to replace the 2+ year old CC substrate that I suspect is a player in my nitrate unhappiness.

The current substrate grains are about the size of maybe... Grape Nuts? Bigger thank Kosher Salt, smaller than gourmet Sea Salt. I suppose it's pretty standard CC...

What's the best thing to replace it with that WON'T become a nitrate factory. The right kind of playsand seems popular and potentially becomes LS (?), but I thought I'd heard nitrate issues with it under some circumstances as well.

Any advice would be appreciated as well as estimates on quantity of whatever is suggested for a 90 gallon (48x18x24) system.

I've got to figure the best way to dig the current stuff out. I absolutely cannot go dragging it up the sides of the tank in a shoveling fashion since it'll scratch the living crap out of the acrylic. Is there a siphon method strong enough to lift it?

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[revhtree]

Use a giant wet/dry vaccum! Get has much as you can, and suck out the rest. I think a heavy duty one would do the job...

 

[Phyl]

If you take it all out, without your fish bio load to push the bounds of your system, there will be no impetus for your system to regenerate the necessary biofilter after you've pulled that CC out. I've seen it taken out in thirds on a fishy system... not sure what you'll need to do once you replace it all with sand. Maybe put a shrimp in to start a new cycle? Thoughts anyone?

Otherwise I think aragonite based sand is what I have (I used all LFS store bought sand). You don't want silica based sand. If you're not going to purchase sand at the LFS you might want to follow some of the other sand threads so that you know what tests to do on the sand that you do pick up. My sand seems to be sugar sized or so. It doesn't blow around easily and settles quickly when my maroon stirs the sand (a fairly common occurance).

 

[revhtree]

I think he will be fine. If he does this soon then all the LR will seed the new sand before the 7 weeks of qt is over. You can also get a few cups of sand from the lfs. If you do get some sand from another system, then you need to start counting down the qt days all over from the day you add it. The sand could carry in a parasite.

 

[Phyl]

Ah yes, the addition of live rock. I forgot about that variable. That should come with enough bio-capacity to make up for the lost CC. Do you have to feed the system to keep up the bio-bearing bacteria?

And Rev... what are you still doing awake at 2am?! LOL!

 

[amahler]

I've got a couple more weeks (at most) of bio-ball time in here before they are all gone. Of course, I could leave them in as long as I want if they would help in a substrate change, but I'm currently down to maybe 1/8th of the number I used to have (maybe more - it's hard to gauge).

Even with their removal, nitrites and ammonia are zero under the normal bio-load, so something is picking up the slack (rock and/or substrate I assume).

Anyway, with the remaining bio-balls and about 80 pounds of established rock already in place, wouldn't new sand (bagged playsand of the proper kind) seed fairly rapidly?

I guess I think of my CC all the time in terms of its bad nitrate properties and tend to forget that it's likely playing a large role in the positive end of the nitrogen cycle as well. Would this be a correct assumption?

In any case, the fish are at the Cupramine Spa right now, but I still have inverts in here and will be adding a few more during QT time. There are 16 small hermits (scarlets, etc) and one happy Cleaner Shrimp... so I've got life in here I need to respect during these transitions.

What if I introduced the sand a section at a time? If I'm in six or eight weeks of QT, what pace would you all suggest for removing a section of CC and replacing it with sand. Once a week? Once every two weeks? Say a quarter or a fifth at a time or somesuch pace?

In any case, I'm more inclined to use non-LS bagged playsand (again, vinegar fizz tested, etc) than risk a parasite with existing LS. I don't need any more of those variables right now.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[lando]

I would move all the LR and inverts to a rubbermaid tub with water fromthe main. Save some more water in another tubb. Leave an inch or two of standing water above the substrate. Discard this water and substrate and replace it the sand of your choice. Make sure you have some extra aged SW ready to go. Put the rock back in the tank along with the water. Be prepared for a sand stom and a mini-cycle. Put some of your CC substrate in a fine mesh bag or a nylon stocking and lay it on the substrate. This will help seed the new sand bed. You can also ask a few LFS for a couple of cups of sand from their established tanks. Good luck.

 

[amahler]

How extensive would you say a "mini-cycle" would be?

Is what you're describing something I'd do in a day or are there any stopping points in there where I need to wait for something to happen or establish?

I've got clean trashcans enough to retain most of my water - so the more I keep the better?

Do you suggest this be done before the arrival of new rock? In other words, maybe do this the day before new rock arrives as part of a larger plan or get the new rock, let it establish and THEN do this?

Finally, how deep of a layer of sand should I put in the system?

Thanks for all the info!
- Aaron

 

[lando]

I think you could do it in a day. Just keep an eye on parameters for a few days after the substrate change. The mini-cycle will depend on the amount of cured LR added to the tank and the amount of previously used bio-media (bio-balls or LR rubble in a sump). IMO, the NH3 spike you may encounter should be easily managed by water changes until it cycles out. You can plan this a day or two before the LR arrives or the same day. I do not think it will really matter much. I would shoot for 2-3inches of sand. What ever you think looks good. If you want the benefits of a true DSB, you should have 5-6inches of sand.

 

[Don424]

I've been reading this debate for several years now.....crushed coral being a bad substrate etc.........botttom line is It won't become a nitrate factory if you vacuum it every 2 weeks or so depending on the bioload.

Sand beds(oolitic sand), which really do need to be vacuumed at times, can't be for obvious reasons. how many thread do you read about cyno and algae outbreaks yadda yadda yadda . Seems like a lot of people want a tank but not do the maintenance........can't be done!!!. Even a bare bottom tank needs to be vacuumed to get rid of excess detritus.

There's no substitution for good tank maintenance no matter what your substrate is. There is NOTHING wrong with crushed coral as long as you vacuum consistant with the bioload and I challenge any reefer or fish only guy to prove me wrong.

Geez........hope i spelled vacuum right
Good luck.

 

[Don424]

What's in your sump?

 

[amahler]

I agree with you... but I was given this tank as a running system (substrate, water and all) when it was two years or more old.

Trust me, I think this substrate is already in the nitrate factory category.

I'll know more when the final bio-balls are out and some water changes have happened afterward. If they are still up, I won't have a lot more to point my finger at by that time.

This will also all take place in a fallow tank since all the fish will be in QT when the last bio-balls come out.

Keep ya posted...
- Aaron

 

[StripesTheEel]

I have crushed coral and i have had no problems at all.. a vibrant white at all times.. i have a golden head sleep goby who cleans it all day long.. as far as getting your substrate out... the cheapest way is some hose a very big bucket.. throw on end in the tank and suck on the other end then wallaaaa here comes the water.. but watch out... put the end in the bucket straight away...salt water is yuk!
the end of the hose thats in the tank grab a hold of that and stir it around.. it'll suck up all the dirty stuff and if u want your substrate gone that'd be sucked up to

good luck!

 

[lando]

Aaron, are you replacing the bioballs with anything?

 

[amahler]

Lando,

Yes, live rock. I added 45 more pounds before I started the bio-ball removal and will add probably another 45 pounds in the coming weeks.

Right now I'm at about 80 pounds total in the tank and will be closer to 120 to 125 when I'm done.

Even with the bio-balls coming out, my ammonia and nitrites stay at zero all the time (except for a small, small bump for about two days when I added the last batch of LR).

Figure in a substrate change to sand and I'd hope I'd be doing ok in a 90 gallon tank (and yes, I have a skimmer).

Most of the rock is in the display tank - but there are a couple of inches in the sump and I have a piece of "reef bone" (dead LR that tested positive with vinegar) that I plan to demolish and add to the sump as well. It's dead right now, but I suspect it'll seed pretty quickly.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[lando]

Sounds good. You amy want to consider the possibilty of putting LR rubble in the bioball chamb for added biological filtration. If you are lucky, you can get it for free from the LFS. Just have them save up all of the small broken peices from the bottom of the shipping boxes.

 

[RLG2182]

You amy want to consider the possibilty of putting LR rubble in the bioball chamb for added biological filtration.

I have 30 lbs of LR rubble just in my sump... possibly more. Am/Nitrites/Nitrates haven't been detected since a couple weeks after my cycle finished.

 

[amahler]

Thanks, folks... sounds good to me. By saying I had LR in my sump, that's what I meant. I am putting it where the bio-balls were formerly located - and the "reef bones" are going to be rubble soon after I finish a hammer job.

Here's a picture from earlier in the process. There are far less bio-balls in there now:

http://sparhawk.sbc.edu/tank/new-rock/source/7.html


Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[lando]

Perfect!