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View Poll Results: Does your LFS offer a livestock guaranty?
7 days or more 1 7.69%
5 days 0 0%
48-72 hours 3 23.08%
24 hours 1 7.69%
Till I walk out the door 8 61.54%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-14-2003, 08:43 PM   #11
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What I wrote above is just MY opinion.
I know that, but as the Admin of a message board, I had to call you on it. IMO, you shouldn't comdemn all vendors for one poor experience. I also feel it is not a good idea to plant in the newbies heads that the online vendors are selling chemically caught fish. It is just not true, and certainly cannot be proven.

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What people right in articles is one thing
Unless it is from a poor source...article are researched and verified before printing. It is required due to the liability of liable and slander etc...

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when an online retailer is selling a fish for a very very cheap price, do you really think they paid extra for a diver to net the fish himself?
First let me explain that the reason online vendors are so much cheaper than the LFS is..........overhead. These vendors use warehouses (cheap rent or own) rather than expensive store front. They buy in volume therefore they get a better price, and in most cases the fish are transhipped directly to the online vendor, rather than to a wholesaler. All shipping costs are eaten by you the consumer where when they get to the wholesaler, then go to your LFS, there is additional freight added to the cost of the fish. There is alot more than meets the eye as to how these fish are priced. As I said above, the same collectors, no matter who get's the fish in the end. The collectors, btw, are the ones that would use cyanide, not the vendors. Yes, they will pay extra for net caught fish, why? Cause it is illegal to use cyanide to catch the fish, the law is cracking down, so it is making more sense to pay a little more for the fish, than the fines imposed by illegal collection methods.

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I'm saying that these online places who sell directly to your door are very more succeptable to sell poisoned fish.
No there not. They will receive a higher actual number of cyanide caught fish, but the % will be the same. That's cause 5 = 20% of 20, and 20 = 20% of 100, the number is different, but the percentage is the same.

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That's what the topic is about Guarantees, correct.
Yep, but your the one that took it off on a tangent As the Admin of this board, I can't let you make the baseless statements you made as fact, without putting up a defense. If you had clearly stated that it was simply your opinion....I never would have posted. When you throw numbers around like 99% of online vendors...you make it appear as if you have the research to back it up. Just how many fish have you purchased on-line?

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I personally would like to take a vacation and view the process from catching the fish from the ocean and then to the first person who receives these fish and see how the process goes from their.

From what I have read, and seen, I think you would simply prefer to dive the reefs. I think the collection and storage have come a long ways, but still have a very long way to go. I have maintained for a long time these fish live inspite of us, rather than because of us.

I would like to point out also from your previous post Cyanide caught fish do not die in a few days. They will last for weeks, the chemical damages their digestive system, and even though they feed well and constantly......they are slowly starving to death. The saddest part is that you are actually more likely to pic a cyanide caught fish at the LFS than a healthy one. The colors of a cyanide fish are more vibrant than those of a regular fish, and as noted above they eat just like they should.
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Old 03-15-2003, 12:25 AM   #12
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I honestly think you are naive about the LFS and where they get their fish from. They are getting their fish from the same places that the online retailers get theirs from. The online retailers actually have to hold their fish longer periods in order to sell them, I have yet to see a local retailer have any "supply" of fish to sell.

Also, netting the fish is a very tricky term. They could have been drugged, then netted and they would have the right to say "all our fish are hand caught". I have had much better success with buying online that from buying locally, and that locally is within a 100 square mile radius. One LFS that I bought my last tank from, drives 6 hours one way to dallas every 2 weeks to buy his fish from a wholesaler that tranships them in the day before. The petshop I work at gets his transhipped in from Fiji.....wonder what method they used to catch those....
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Old 03-15-2003, 09:57 AM   #13
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Hey BEARFAN Good luck with K. Stewart. Better in Chicago than in Miami . You will see why Pittsburgh got rid of him. Don't worry he'll pull through in pressure situations . I have QB problems in Miami myself.
I have my black mourning band on. At least you are probably going to end up with Brian Griese as a backup (who is better than Kordell Stewart in any capacity)
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Old 03-15-2003, 09:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by skip_16157
I'm just saying that if the online retailers that are starting to Boom in their sales and the governments find that they are poisoning fish and shipping them in mass quantitees that this will probably be stopped. Then how would anyone be able to get fish if they outlaw the shipment of live fish.

These are all just my opinions, no arguments are meant to be started. I think people should be more aware.
What about the old Microeconomics rule called "economies of scale" Where one business is able to beat competition prices by being able to produce that product at a cheaper cost of production.

Every aquarium livestock selling business is just as vulnerable as the next to receiving poisoned fish. They don't always buy from the same people and some buy more than others. Think about how much more a online retailer is going to order for resale as compared to your LFS.

Just think about it not from an emotional standpoint but from a business standpoint because that's what it is.

Like reefrunner said the hobby has made great strides to overcome such crimes against nature.

Newbies should not be afraid of ordering online. It happens to be one of the best ways to get the best equipment and that hard to find fish or coral. It has made this hobby more accessible.


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Old 03-15-2003, 09:02 PM   #15
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I feel 99% of the online vendors have livestock that was captured by chemical poisoning instead of net caught and are mailing them. So, their 7 day guarantee is great because your poisoned fish will be dead in just a few days and you get your money back but lose $30 in shipping.
Yes, I made a inacurate statement but I didn't ask that you blow it completely out of proportion. I didn't say that all of their fish are poisoned, I said that they have posioned fish that they re-sell and someone is bound to get them.I think if you re-read my original post that this paragraph was the only thing that was inaccurate. My point was a LFS you can preview your fish. My LFS would hold the fish for 2 weeks if I asked. So this is a better situation for me. I have received a total of 8 fish from liveaquaria.com. 5 died. 1 died because a plane broke down (not thier fault) another died because they only placed 1 heat pack inside when I notified them that it was cold. And 2 where fuzzy lions that would eat but they died in a week every time. One looked like it was in a war when I received it. 3 of my fish would just swim around rampidly on cirlces. And the flame angel would eat but was always breathing hard.

I completely know that my LFS get their fish from the same places. The problem here is that everyone wants to argue about others opinions. If you take time to read the post accuratley instead of hurrying the post a argument then you will see that I stated that I feel better now by getting from my LFS. It's just plain and simple.

A hundred others can order their fish on-line and have complete success. I am in no way trying to tell them not to do this.

Everybody will have different luck. So buy your fish any way that you want. I would recommend Liveaquaria.com to anyone. Their customer service is excellent. The only thing that I didn't like is that you order your fish from I believe Wisconsin and they send your order to CA for shipment. I just feel that these operators would be better to be a the shop where the fish come from. The packagers just take the order and bag it then ship it. But that is not that big of a deal because it happens everywhere and once again it doesn't matter because what they ship is what you get.

So finally I say buy wherever you like and the number for Liveaquaria.com is 1-800-334-3699 and talk to Rachel. She is very knowledgable and friendly.

Please no more arguments this board was great to me to get me started my self and I didn't intend to cause problems.
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Old 03-15-2003, 09:18 PM   #16
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Please don't mistake my posts for an argument. I was not upset in the least, I hope you are not. For the record, if you'll look in the general retailers section, you'll see my review of LiveAquaria, it is not as gracious as yours. I agree the service is excellent, but I was not overly impressed with the health and size of their animals. I am not a huge fan of buying online, but I see it as a viable alternative for tose without a LFS or as Josh stated to get that "hard to come by" coral/fish.

BTW, many of the online vendors have seperate offices for orders etc.....far away from the shipping facility. The fish come into LA and their facilities are in Hawthorne, many of them are in Hawthorne, probably makes it easy for them ship them out as well as receive them. I imagine their drygoods come out of Wisconsin.
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Old 03-17-2003, 01:35 PM   #17
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A reflection on fish life gaurantee...

If you have ever bought fish and killed them due to poor acclimation, stressful handling, poor water conditions, incompatability and returned your purchase to the place you bought them, that fish store is losing money on the fish when they offer you a gaurantee. If the fish store is really a pet store, they probably offer a long gaurantee because they know their fish are in poor health, they know you will come back and get another fish, possibly buy more fish, and possibly buy some dog food too. That's where they make the money, on dog food, or dogs, ect. So you know a true fish store from a pet store by the length of the gaurantee. Why do you think Meijers and Walmart have those super long gaurantees!

My LFS (1/2 hour away actually) has a 2 day warrenty on all fish, marine , coral, freshwater and plants. I know why it is so short because they actually know what they are talking about there and will not sell you a fish just to make a buck. They have an awesome store with the BEST display tanks i have ever seen, and they are more expensive than your chain stores, but they cull their fish, medicate them and buy from reputable dealers. The extra cents a fish goes to the knowledgable employees and to a huge store that offers a ton of variety, not just bread and butter livestock!


As far as the online distributors go, I dislike them very much. Yes you can get oddball coral and fish, and do you know why? Most fish speacialty retail stores have bought those same fish at one time, but they will actually tell you how difficult they are to keep and thus most people wont buy the fish after getting the low down on how unsuccessful most aquarits are with it. They then wont get those fish back instock. Plus fish speaciatly stores just cant carry as much volume as wholesalers/online warehouses do due to space. The LFS also cannot compete with online distributors' prices. Example- your LFS cannot carry bulbs for much cheaper than they do, because they have to pay for freight and they have to pay much more to run their store. Thus people buy bulbs online, thus LFS don't carry most of them anymore because they simply cannot sell them.

And it will keep getting worse and worse, with most people buying online, those LFS will lose money and customers and will eventually go out of business. Then the only places we CAN buy anything from will be online distributors! Thats being melodramatic, but you can see what i mean.

ender
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Old 03-17-2003, 02:24 PM   #18
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Brian Griese is a target... his feet are made of cement. If he could move as fast as they say he can think... he might be a good QB. The fact is .. he sucks under pressure and he is injury prone. I am so glad my Broncos got rid of him.

Reefrunner....

I agree with most of your points but I don't accept articles as fact. Some are based on scientific study but even those are funded with an agenda in mind. If I were in the LFS business I would only quote from favorable studies.... If I were in the restaurant business I would probably get another source with another point of view. The point I am trying to make is that everything that we read and share with each other is based on observations and opinions. All of it should be taken as advice only and not considered an absolute fact. It gives us all a good starting point and a better chance of success but even science has been proven to be skewed by money/funding.
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Old 03-17-2003, 04:05 PM   #19
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Brian Griese is a target... his feet are made of cement. If he could move as fast as they say he can think... he might be a good QB. The fact is .. he sucks under pressure and he is injury prone. I am so glad my Broncos got rid of him.
Not sure where this came from.........but OK, I'm happy for your Broncos too.

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And it will keep getting worse and worse, with most people buying online, those LFS will lose money and customers and will eventually go out of business. Then the only places we CAN buy anything from will be online distributors! Thats being melodramatic, but you can see what i mean.
I agree wholeheartedly, support your LFS when ever you can, unless they are a bunch of butt monkeys.

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but I don't accept articles as fact.
No one should, but we have to get the information available (all info) and then make informed decisions.

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Some are based on scientific study but even those are funded with an agenda in mind.
Yes, and how much weight you give to certain articles should depend on who funded it.


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The point I am trying to make is that everything that we read and share with each other is based on observations and opinions. All of it should be taken as advice only and not considered an absolute fact.

Please do not mistake my posts for what they are not. No offense to skip, but I had to take that stance in order to maintain the objectivity of this site. The rest was my opinion based on research and personal experience.
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Old 03-17-2003, 05:42 PM   #20
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Pets at Home guarantee them for 7 days, but you have to produce a corpse to claim your replacement fish. Last time I had one die the night I got it I just didn't have the heart to cart the body back to the pet shop!
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