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Old 09-23-2005, 06:20 AM   #1
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DON, disolved organic nitrogen

What is a good way to remove this from the water?
skimming?
liverock?
just curious.. TIA
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Old 09-23-2005, 11:22 AM   #2
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as in Dissolved Organic Compounds? skimming helps remove these.

anaerobic pockets of bacteria deep inside live rock can also break down nitrates, but macro algae in a fuge will be more efficient, in speed and in cost
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Old 09-23-2005, 07:44 PM   #3
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Ive read that there is a theory that algae consumes NO3 and PO4 but in the process realises DON in order to propagate algae further down stream (say hair algae being most common in the display tank).
Section 2.9 Algae Scrubbers
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir...faq/part1.html
There seems to be a insinuation that AC will help but there isnt any information about using LR or skimmers with Algae Scrubbers making me wonder "why are they trying to run one filtration type into the ground without any other filtration type to assist"; At least the berlin method also has the skimmer to help with filtration.. I realize Im opening a can of worms with this that was not apparent in the topic.. please forgive me..
Macro's being a very similar method to ATS just not quite as active or aggressive.. Thanks for you input so far malkore.. maybe you will give me your opinion on experimental filtration techniques while your at it? I hope so.

*edit* I looked back to see when that usenet was arcived and it was in 1998.. that makes me wonder were ATS reasearch has gone in the last seven years I cant seem to find any more information.. I have read Dynamic Aquaria, building Ecosystems (an ecology text that is the sorce for ATS information) and I cant seem to find were people have actually tried somthing other then AC to help with the issue Im talking about (aside for one member of reefs.org.. maybe that will be were Ill have to direct my questions ) *edit*
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:52 PM   #4
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I've never heard of DON used exclusively before. Why would the algae release this, when all it needs in essence is light to prosper? I know its more complicated than this in real life, however that is the crux of photosynthesis...light. Without the light, nothing would be produced. Even when looking at the actual chemical reaction of photosynthesis, isn't it just producing C6H12O6, and 02? Carbohydrates(energy, or ATP) and oxygen. I'm trying to remember this from bio class. Lol.
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Old 09-24-2005, 03:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilishturtles
I've never heard of DON used exclusively before. Why would the algae release this, when all it needs in essence is light to prosper? I know its more complicated than this in real life, however that is the crux of photosynthesis...light. Without the light, nothing would be produced. Even when looking at the actual chemical reaction of photosynthesis, isn't it just producing C6H12O6, and 02? Carbohydrates(energy, or ATP) and oxygen. I'm trying to remember this from bio class. Lol.
It seems that we both had a series of very similar lectures in bio. class..
Mine being 15 years ago though so I might have to really streach for that one.. (I like how you remembered the molecular breakdown of mono charbohydrate.. uhh sugar LOL )

In reading the Dynamic Aquaria book there were a few over a dozen micro algae species that can make up the turf in the filter. They did not go into great detail on exactly what was going on on a cellular level (though I wouldnt be suppressed if they summarized it with the pictures/drawings of them 8O, the book is a thick headed read by the way referencing two important works almost in there entirety it seemed
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Old 09-25-2005, 01:02 AM   #6
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I think you are at a standstill on ATS information because it has been largely bagged in hobbyist aquaria. It is fairly cumbersome to set up with the necessary surge buckets, etc. and the yellowing effect on the water often requires heavy use of carbon or more likely a skimmer (which negates the reason for setting up the ATS as a "natural" method of filtration. For the average hobbyist, a simple refugium provides most of the same benefits (nutrient export, plankton production, etc.) with more stable algaes (chaeto, gracilaria, etc.). A hybrid of the ATS system, the Ecosystem method (or Feng method) hit the scene a few years ago, but to my knowledge has not taken a foothold either.

I found a few anecdotal threads on a Google search that mentioned that too infrequent harvesting of the hair algae in ATS systems could have been a reason for the increase in DON....but nothing scientific in nature.
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Old 09-25-2005, 03:04 AM   #7
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From reading the book the locations of natural turf algae would be in costal areas the same as the surf that does the natural protein skimming.. isnt there a chance thats how its suppose to be..

*edit* If you couldnt tell.. I think skimming is a "natural" filtration method as well *edit*
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Old 09-25-2005, 09:48 AM   #8
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At its simplest I dont personaly think the ATS is all that cumbersom to build, even though there currently isnt any commersial versions of it available, legal reasons...
The Ecosystem method seems to be a poorly designed system in the first place IMO..
If skimming is the best subfiltration then that would be the answer to my question. Thanks.. :P
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:02 AM   #9
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I don't like generic terms, what compounds are we talking about exactly? Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate all get absorbed by plants to make up the plant matter, a plant isn't going to release anything that isn't benificial to it. So we're either talking algae spoors, or (I forget the technical name) one of those compunds designed to poison other species of plants and give the origninating species an advantage.

If we're talking spoors, we want those to exist and settle somewhere to continue the algae scrubbing. If we're talking about those other compounds, I'd say skimming, carbon, and water changes are all valid options for removal, but it's not a big deal if you're not trying to grow more than one species.
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Old 09-25-2005, 04:28 PM   #10
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The term is used in this article, I dont particularly like the vagness of the term either but they are asuming that there is a untestable form of N that is in the water from what I can understand. And some asume its the yellowing effect.
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir...faq/part1.html
section 2.9
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