High Ca and High Alk and HIGH pH!

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dansemacabre

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Jul 20, 2003
Messages
440
Location
Detroit MI
I did a water test today, and the alk was "High." It's a Red Sea test kit (I know, I know, I'm going to Salifert) so that's all it gave me was "High." The Ca is @ ~500ppm. The pH is 8.6 Is there anything dangerous about high alk and Ca levels? I know that pH is terribly high, so what should I do? The clam, star polyps, ricordia, xenia look fine, the fish look fine, but the bubble coral looks very unhappy. Please help!

125gal ... 4-5" DSB, 55gal sump, Berlin XL skimmer, over 200lbs. total LR.
Ammonia - 0, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - <2ppm

Bubble coral, Star Polyps, Deresa clam are main Ca consumers...deresa clam is still new. Thanks!
 
Depending on when you tested the pH, I don't see that much cause for concern unless tested earlier in the day. Did you test soon after any additions or water change?

The Ca is not at a dangerous level but I would suggest getting an alk test that gives you an actual number as apposed to a range. It makes it much easier to guage problems and for a reef set up I wouldn't rely on the Red Sea kit but as you said, you know :wink: .

If your salt mix tests with better numbers, I would suggest a few water changes if nothing else. In all honesty, I wouldn't be that concerned if only the bubble is a bit slumpish. Just be sure you don't dose anything until the chem eases back a bit.

FYI, star polyps do not deposit CaCO3. 8)

Cheers
Steve
 
i wonder the accuracy of the test/reading ! what range is "HIGH" with that alk test kit?
ca @ 500 not way off imo 450 ideal :)
8.2-8.4 is ideal ph so 8.6 at the end of the not far off imo i guess ya tested not much sooner that 7:08 huh ? bet the reading might read 8.2 in the a.m. :)
nitrates could come down but not that bad
bubble coral could be having a bad day i guess hehe j/k
 
Thanks guys. I dosed a bit of Ca the other day (Fri), because the level was dipping below 350. I'm in the process of designing my kalk drip. A fuge is also in the works.

The bubble is usually fully expanded. He didn't look so hot in the LFS, but I saw nothing really wrong with him. He's grown by about half in the month or so I've had him. He started acting funky when the Xenias went in. I don't think there's any chem warfare from the Xenias, but that's definitely the day it happened. Any thoughts? I'd hate to lose him. Thanks again!
 
dansemacabre said:
I don't think there's any chem warfare from the Xenias, but that's definitely the day it happened. Any thoughts? I'd hate to lose him.
As far as chem warfare, Xenia's at the top of the list believe it or not. I would highly recommend running with carbon if you don't already. It will greatly ease the problem if there something in the water.

Cheers
Steve
 
Whoa, really? Didn't know that :oops:
How long will those crazy Xenias keep that up? If they consistently do so, should I run carbon all the time? Thanks for the info, man.
 
Depends on the exact species of Xenia you have but it won't hurt. There are many types of soft corals that will engage in chem warfare moreso than stonies.

Cheers
Steve
 
Thanks, Steve! After adding the carbon into the overflow line, the bubble is back to 100% today! Fully inflated and happy. The Xenia is in my gallery: the typical brownish colored one. (Pulsing happily, by the way) Thanks for the info on the Xenia, I had no idea it was using chem warfare!
 
dansemacabre said:
The Xenia is in my gallery: the typical brownish colored one.
I'll check my book when I get home unless someone beats me to it. Chances are you will still only end up with Xenia "sp". Although there are over 60 species of Xenia, one most often is hard to tell from the other unless under a microscope.

Cheers
Stve
 
Found a book at the LFS ... something on the order of 8 of the 14 types of Xenia are toxic. I might even have 2 different kinds on one stalk. One set of stalks stay open during night/Actinic light time ... the other set closes up.

pH is now 8.2
Alk - 9dkH (got a Salifert today ;))
Ca - 475-500ppm (Gotta grab the Salifert for it on Fri)

Look better? Thanks for the help!
 
dansemacabre said:
Found a book at the LFS ... something on the order of 8 of the 14 types of Xenia are toxic. I might even have 2 different kinds on one stalk. One set of stalks stay open during night/Actinic light time ... the other set closes up.
There are actually 60+ species of Xenia.

pH is now 8.2
Alk - 9dkH (got a Salifert today ;))
Ca - 475-500ppm (Gotta grab the Salifert for it on Fri)
pH is good but I would let the Ca drop a bit and maintain the alk. What does the saltmix test at after aerating for a day?

Cheers
Steve
 
I don't have any made up at present. Do you want to know the saltmix's pH, dkH, or Ca? Or all of the above? I remember in the past that fresh saltmix (IO) came to Ca-450ppm, and 8.2 pH. I can retest on Thursday after I whip some up (time for a water change anyways) and let you know then.
 
IME with IO, it typically had a low Ca and high alk ratio. If your test yields the same result, then I would wonder how much kalk your dosing and how often? 350 ppm Ca to 475-500 ppm in only a few days is a pretty large swing.

I would definately urge caution before you dose the kalk again and be sure the Ca level is much lower. You may end up needing a buffer to maintain the alk though. Make sure you use the http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/caalkcalc.htm]balanced calculator[/url] and try not to exceed a Ca of 450 ppm with the appropriate alk.

Cheers
Steve
 
Yes, the Ca additive I used was going based on their recommended dosage, and it dripped overnight. I saw after the test that it was definitely way too high. Now that it's probably where I want it (will test when I get home from work), I'm going to be slow-dripping kalk continuously.

I'm a little lost on the calculator. If my Ca is 450ppm, my Alk should be 12.6 dKH?

As far as dosing kalk, the LFS says you need to watch your Mg. Will the kalk eat at the Mg? What range do you want Mg in? Anything else you can tell me about dripping kalk and the desired Ca<->Alk level would be great! Kudos to you! Thanks for the TONS of help!
 
OK... I'm confused.
pH - 8.2
Ca - 350ppm (still Red Sea ... sorry)
Alk - 7.8dKH

what's with the crazy swing? I'm assuming I need to fix these before dripping the kalk? Ca should be at 450ppm and Alk should be 9-12dKH? If they must be fixed, should I get a Ca increaser and a Buffer? I don't want to screw up my animals. :oops:
 
dansemacabre said:
I'm a little lost on the calculator. If my Ca is 450ppm, my Alk should be 12.6 dKH?
Correct but as I said don't look for exact numbers just be in the general range. If you decide to maintain a Ca of 450 ppm, you should definately keep the alk above 11 DKH. It will prevent problems with balance later on.

As far as dosing kalk, the LFS says you need to watch your Mg. Will the kalk eat at the Mg? What range do you want Mg in? Anything else you can tell me about dripping kalk and the desired Ca<->Alk level would be great!
Unless dosing a two part liq additive which usually contain Mg in the Ca supp, I would always suggest monitoring the Mg. Wether that be through two part dry or kalk. The Mg will either get deposited faster or simpley precipitate out normally. Alk and Ca are actually at odds with each other chemically and one is always trying to gain advantage over the other. Having a sufficient amount of Mg in the system is what keeps them together and helps maintain the balance.



dansemacabre said:
OK... I'm confused.
pH - 8.2
Ca - 350ppm (still Red Sea ... sorry)
Alk - 7.8dKH

what's with the crazy swing? I'm assuming I need to fix these before dripping the kalk? Ca should be at 450ppm and Alk should be 9-12dKH? If they must be fixed, should I get a Ca increaser and a Buffer? I don't want to screw up my animals. :oops:
Not sure what would cause the sudden drop unless the first test was either inacurrate or you tested immediately after dosing. No sign of white residue on the rocks and such?

You do not need to get the levels higher in order to use the kalk just balance the two. Although the Ca is low against the alk, you should still be fine using the kalk, you just might need to add a CaCl supp as well later on in the day. As far as dripping kalk 24/7, I wouldn't recommend it based on your current CaCO3 load. It doesn't need it. At most you will probabley need to drip 1-2 teaspoons worth 2x a week. Once you get more hard corals or crazy coralline growth it may need more.

Cheers
Steve
 
Thanks, Steve.
I'm looking for a Salifert Mg test...tough to find right now. I've got some Kent Tech-M, I just need to see how much is in there.

No white residues anywhere. Just a bunch of black fuzz that appeared overnight...and a SPS-eating star making its way slowly towards my stylophora frag.

So I should buy a CaCl supplement, and do I need to buy anything for the Alk, or will the kalk help with that? Thanks again for everything!
 
dansemacabre said:
So I should buy a CaCl supplement, and do I need to buy anything for the Alk, or will the kalk help with that? Thanks again for everything!
Kalk raises both Ca and alaklinity equally. It is one of the best balanced additives you can use. If continuing with the kalk additions and depending on your results with the saltmix testing, Ca is probabley going to be the one you need in the long run. That's not to say you will never need a buffer, just not right now.

Cheers
Steve
 
Thanks for all the help steve. I think this is my last question. The only Ball's they have at my local grocer that isn't a spice/seasoning/stuff-with-additives is called Ball's Pickle Crisp. It's 100% Calcium Chloride. Will this work for kalk, or do I need Calcium Hydroxide?
 
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