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Old 12-18-2002, 11:48 PM   #31
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I read that the optimum particle size for a DSB is 1/8 mm. If by washing it you are removing the size particles you need then it does not sound like the thing to do. I think I also read in that same article that it was an average particle size and that a variation od sizes is best.... some of the pros around hear might know better.
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Old 12-19-2002, 12:11 AM   #32
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Sand.

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If by washing it you are removing the size particles you need then it does not sound like the thing to do.
There is a difference between dust and sand...Silt is not very good IMO

That dust that I am talking about, believe it or not is not very healthy for PH and filters...IMO

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I've also heard people speak against washing the sand. So should I wash or not?
You don't want to wash live sand....I see no problem with washing bagged sand from HD or HWS. They sell it around fertilizers and such..I wash it just to be safe...

What works for some may not worK for others...IMO
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:37 AM   #33
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When I added my southdown sand to my 80 I did not wash it.

I added the sand to an empty tank. Then I added water to the tank.

The sand did still give the water a nice whiteout effect as the lighter dust particles where mixed up. Over the period of a few days the dust settled out and I added my live rock.

For the period of a month or so as I was using the algae mag on the tank close to the sand a small local dust clowd would appear.

Now I dont have these issues as many of the dust particles have either disolved or clumped together thanks to the bactera.
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:09 PM   #34
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There is a difference between dust and sand...Silt is not very good IMO
According to Dr Ron (http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm) A diversity of grain size from sugar grain sized down to silt, will promote and sustain a larger diversity of fauna for a DSB. Basically some critters don't care much what the grain size is and some will only live in certain grain sizes, like silt. I'm not saying your wrong, just that there are different opinions on this and that silt isn't necessarily bad. The most common advice, at this point in time, is not to wash the sand.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:35 PM   #35
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Sand

OK, I read that stuff too, and I do agree that there are creatures that like the silty stuff, I just choose not to have it if I can help it...I quess I didn't really clarify...I like seeing the graininess of the sand on the bottom..It is funny though when reading stuff on this topic...There seems to be more that say don't wash the sand than do and it does get confusing without clarification, especially for the person who has never owned a marine aquarium before...

I also, know that there is a lot of info on how deep to have your sand bed also, but, isn't it true that if you have it too deep, and don't have the adequate amout of sand stirring creatures, it could release toxic amounts of gasses in the water thus killing all of the fish and inverts?

The silt that lies on the bottom of the aquarium promotes this anaerobic bacteria because of the lack of oxygen in the SB causing the high levels of toxicity. I read Ronald L. Shimek, Phd's page also, and what I don't uderstand is he goes against 85% of the population on DSB? He obviously doesn't keep fish...Seems only reef systems.. Everything I read about keeping fish states to watch out for the gases and such, and to keep animals such as sifting stars and gobies, so what gives? So we should make a sand bed and the tiny orgs will do everything? I don't know, sounds like the LFS should stop selling sand digging creatures altogether...
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:47 PM   #36
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Geez. This thread is going to turn into the never ending argument, just like the lighting comparison sticky.

Sorry to be blunt people, but it boils down to just one simple thing. ITS JUST A MATTER OF OPINION.
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:54 PM   #37
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IMO

You are so right, I believe that earlier I stated that what works for me might not work for everyone....Sorry, I don't really mean to argue, it is a by product of reading too many books with contradicting material..

I believe I was told some time ago,

"Don't believe everything you read and certainly not everything you hear"

Experience is the key...


My Appologies
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:13 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by michealprater
Geez. This thread is going to turn into the never ending argument, just like the lighting comparison sticky.

Sorry to be blunt people, but it boils down to just one simple thing. ITS JUST A MATTER OF OPINION.
If you don't like debate...don't read it. I do not consider anything said yet, to be argument, simply debate. Timbo2 posted some very good questions, which I will answer in the next post (or at least try too). Debate is for open minded people that want to learn, there are no losers in a debate, argument are for those with closed minds where the only objective is to be right. This hasn't degraded to an argument and until it does, it is welcome to continue.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:23 PM   #39
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Thats why i chimed in with my two cents. In a true debate, everyone should be entitledto there opinion, thats why I posted mine. I wasnt mad, if I came off that way I appologize. Don't want to p!$* off the people that help me the most.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:34 PM   #40
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Re: Sand

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Originally Posted by timbo2
OK, I read that stuff too, and I do agree that there are creatures that like the silty stuff, I just choose not to have it if I can help it...I quess I didn't really clarify...I like seeing the graininess of the sand on the bottom..It is funny though when reading stuff on this topic...There seems to be more that say don't wash the sand than do and it does get confusing without clarification, especially for the person who has never owned a marine aquarium before...
If the only reason to lose the silt is the look...keep it, it will settle to the bottom. Larger particles will come to the top.

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I also, know that there is a lot of info on how deep to have your sand bed also, but, isn't it true that if you have it too deep, and don't have the adequate amout of sand stirring creatures, it could release toxic amounts of gasses in the water thus killing all of the fish and inverts?
First the toxic gas is hydrogen sulfide, and if you can stand to be in the same room as the tank, it has not reached toxic levels in the aquarium. ALL DSBs will develop areas with hydrogen sulfide, it does form in anoxic zones, which are necessary for the proper functioning of the DSB, the sand in the upper layers is the only sand that is stirred enough for oxygenation. As far as the depth, for a DSB to function most efficiently it should be 4-6 inches, that does not mean a sandbed of 3" won't work also, it just won't function as efficiently. The largest byproduct of no fauna will be sandbed clumping. The bacteria that are on the grains of sand produce an enzyme that works to glue the sand together, the sand bed fauna prevent clumping and therefore they make the DSB work. Sand bed faunas other job is to eat detritus and maintain the sandbed. They are excellent detrivores, the reason they are necessary is because they don't turn the sand too much. Common sense tells us we could stir the sand to keep it from clumping, but that would introduce too much oygen into the sand bed and prevent denitrifying bacteria from colonizing the lower levels of the sand bed.

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The silt that lies on the bottom of the aquarium promotes this anaerobic bacteria because of the lack of oxygen in the SB causing the high levels of toxicity. I read Ronald L. Shimek, Phd's page also, and what I don't uderstand is he goes against 85% of the population on DSB?
Dr Ron is the preminent authority on sandbeds. He is the pioneering force behind the DSB, and to my knowledge, the rest of the aquarium community follows his lead on DSBs. That is not to say that there aren't those that do not agree with the DSB, but simple fact is, they work.

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He obviously doesn't keep fish...Seems only reef systems..
These are not mutually exclusive, a reef with out fish is like pie without the filling.

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Everything I read about keeping fish states to watch out for the gases and such, and to keep animals such as sifting stars and gobies, so what gives?
If your desire is not to keep a DSB, then sifting stars and gobies are one option to keep your sand clean of detritus and oxygenated to prevent hydrogen sulfide. If you are keeping a DSB, they will spell certain doom for your sandbed.

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So we should make a sand bed and the tiny orgs will do everything?
That's the ticket with a DSB, but remember, not everyone uses a DSB.

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I don't know, sounds like the LFS should stop selling sand digging creatures altogether...
I couldn't agree more! Most starve slowly after wiping out all the sand fauna. I have seen some luck with placing food into the sand bed.

I hope this clears up any questions, as noted earlier, it is just opinion, but it is opinion based on alot of antecdotal evidence, as well as some scientific. Do not mistake this as any type of proclamation that this is the only way to do it...there are many different roads to get to the same place. DSBs are what is popular right now, when I started, bare bottomed tanks were what was recommended, were they wrong? No, not for the information available at the time. Now there is different info available, in a few years, there will be another popular "best" method. This is an ever changing hobby, we must change with it, to provide the best homes for our fishy friends.
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