Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Saltwater and Reef > Saltwater Reef Aquaria
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 06-06-2003, 10:23 PM   #51
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 155
The problem with Dsb's is that they only process nitrogen based crud. Other then that they dont do anything. Which means that everything that goes into it and is not nitrogen based sits their and collects. Since their is a bottom to a tank it will eventually cause the anaerobic zone to consume the areobic zone, then it just fails. Yea it great fo awhile though saves you from simple vacuuming out the detritus but you pay a hard price down the road.
Dont worry about the metals, that was another bunk story by our good doctor. In the wild and in every salt tank their are bacteria/chilatons/microbes and so on that live on metal ions and bind them as so as they hit the water. I think someone was looking for a scape goat on the DSB idea
__________________

__________________
Make sure you check out

www.reeffrontiers.com
mojoreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2003, 11:07 PM   #52
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I am sorry, I goofed in my last posts...I was actually refering to the articles introduced by ReefRunner69 in Plenum or no Plenum? By Dr. Rob Toonen, where he was stating the good things about DSB 10cm in depth....
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2003, 11:41 PM   #53
AA Team Emeritus
 
michealprater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Highland , IL
Posts: 2,311
Send a message via Yahoo to michealprater
Well mojoreef, what are your thoughts on a 2 inch sand bed that doesnt get vacuumed regularly? Its not cc or a dsb.
__________________
michealprater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 12:31 AM   #54
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 155
Hi Michael. You everything we do in this hobby is designed to export crud. Skimmers/Algae scrubbers/refugiums and so on and so on. I just dont know why we stop when it comes to a substraight? I would imagine that you are refering to the ecosystem Miricle Mud? Mike all I am saying is that instead of simply removing the detritus we make this endles Sh** cycle. The problem with any sand/crushed coral/mud substraight is that even if it is running perfectly only processes nitrogen based stuff.
Alot of folks believe that the only bacteria in a substriaght is the kind that processes fish waste. This is not even close to the story, man once you get inot the anoxic zone thier are dozens of differing kinds of bacteria. These bacterias create a mini enviroment with in the substraight, each one feeding on the others waste. The problem here is that nothing off gasses like the nitrogenious does (well except for sulphide, but thats rare). Bacteria can just swim up to a metal ion or what ever food source and take a bite out of it. In order to consume they must excrete enzynes/microbes/acids that liquify what they want, then it is available to them. SO what people with DSB's end up with is a soup of these products that dont get processed and just sit thier. Now couple that with bacterial flock, particle dust, dead or dieing bacteria and all the stuff that enters the DSB that isnt nitrogen based and then finally put a glass bottom on the bed (so it has no place to go) and it begins to fill. As it fills it increases in size (the anoxic zone) , since thier is a top to the bed the areobic zone begins to deminish. As time goes by your substraight begins to lose the ability to process ammonia and the ability to lock down phosphates. this is where your creatures will begin to go down hill.

The good Dr. knows this, he choice to blame it on salt mixes and told folks they would have to swap out thier beds and rock every 4 years or so. What he was avoiding was the simple fact that DSB's have limitations. Pretty simple stuff, not so simple if it a source of income for ya.

Sorry for the long post.

Mike
__________________
Make sure you check out

www.reeffrontiers.com
mojoreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 01:34 AM   #55
AA Team Emeritus
 
michealprater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Highland , IL
Posts: 2,311
Send a message via Yahoo to michealprater
Well let me say this first, after reading my post again I realized it came off as me questioning your theory. So let me rephrase my question to give you a better understanding. I have a two inch sand bed in my tank. The grain size is 1/8 at the largest points down to sand as fine as sugar. It is a aragonite bed. I was wondering how you felt about this type of sand bed. It is obvious you are against DSBs but you did not mention SSBs ( shallow sand beds). Another question, what way do you personally keep your tanks? Bare bottom?

I am intrigued by what you have wrote so far, so that is why I am inquiring. How come some of the DSBs have been working for 12 years and running strong and some have supposedly failed? I am not being smart, just curious as to your response so we can all learn.
__________________
michealprater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 03:06 PM   #56
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 155
Hey Michael I am not against DSB's at all. The only problem I have with them in general is that most folks are never told about their limitations. They go into them thinking that they are the end ay beat ll one stop fix. They process Nitrogen based detritus like no other, but unfortunately thats it.
The DSB you are referring to is that of Rob Toonans. The life span (or how fast they deteriate) all depends on your husbandry (how much you feed, what you feed, how you clean your tank, and so on) Robs tank is nice but it only has 2 fish and some softies. Softies are in themselves are nutrient loving things. Myself personal keep corals that are much less tolerant of dirty water and I keep alot more fish, thus have to feed a ton more.
The way we all keep our tanks is a personal concept from what we have learned of the years in the hobby. Everything I have learned in this hobby is that we try to remove nutrient, detritus and so on from the tank. Since the substraight is the point in the tank that gets the most I have chosen to remove it here to instead of creating some elaborate...well.....sh** cycle. I don't run my tanks bare bottom, I run them with about a inch to a 1 1/2 inch bed of CC. It is basically an areobic zone so it processes ammonia and nitrite. I get the vac out once a month and spend about a half hour just vacuuming out the detritus and boom all gone. No build up, no non-nitrogen based detritus, no organics or so on. Alot of folks are worried that you will have a loss of bug life. This is also a misconception (to a point). No buglife will occur in the anoxic zones of your DSB or LR, the only exception is one type of worm and bacteria. Thus all the bug life happens in the oxygenated zone on both LR and Sand. In reality when it comes to pods and ampipods a larger substraight is perfered by them (fine sand is virtually impossible for these type of bugs to navigate). Some folks again say that the bacteria that grows in the anoxic zone is a great source for food for your corals and so on. Well this is bunk to. They cant live in oxygenated water so they are unavailable to anything outside their living zone. Even faculative bacteria (bacteria that can live in both anaerobic and areobic zones) are unavailable.
So I guess the next logical question would be "well then how do we get rid of nitrates". The simple answer is LR. their is nothing that a DSB does that a LR cannot. the only difference (and its not as much as most people think ) is the amount of available surface area (thus more bacteria). See LR and DSB do the same thing, they have the same types of bacteria (well until you get to the really really deep sand beds) same type of bugs, but their is one big difference. Live rock is suspended (as in it doesnt have a glass bottom like a DSB has) so the bacteria action (consummation, reproduction, excretion, development of enzynes, microbes and so on) coupled with a little gravity will actually drive the detritus out. A little experiment you can do yourself to check this is to get a small piece of LR and put it into a bucket, with no light and just a PH and a heater. Make sure you blow any detritus off the rock so it is clean. then toss it in, leave it for a week and take a look. You will see detritus all over the rock and on the bottom of the bucket.
Anyway when the detritus drives out of the rock its now available for my vacuum to remove. I also believe in a lot of flow, and I try to keep the detritus suspended in the water column. this makes it available to corals that use it for food and then eventually available for my skimmer to remove.
In regard to your SSB Michael if fine but if you leave the detritus and crap in their your going to have a problem down the road at some point in time for sure. The best thing any hobbist/reefer can do when entering this hobby is to realize that they have a closed system, yes we get that warm fuzzy feeling when trying to mimic mother nature and in some point we can, but when it comes to most we cannot. We can still have very effective long lasting tanks we just have to work with in the concept of closed systems thats all.

Mike
__________________
Make sure you check out

www.reeffrontiers.com
mojoreef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 12:48 PM   #57
AA Team Emeritus
 
BillyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Western NY
Posts: 4,064
I've read the article linked to at the begining of this thread that discusses how to migrate from CC w/ Plenum to DSB but I have some remaining questions.

My current setup has a few inches of CC with about 1 to 1 1/2 inches of LS that was added on top of that. The majority of the LS has since settled into the CC but the substrate is still certainly active. last night I sat and watched as some uknown critter created a tunnel along that glass, picking up each piece of sand and CC and nibbled along it's surfaces, tucked it behind him and grabbed another piece. (I love watching my tank on a minute level)

So I know that my bed has critters in it (there are lots of tunnels vissible) but I also know it's not running as efficient as it needs to be (my nitrates are consistently high)

I went to HD and bought myself a few bags of southdown (oldcastle) sand and am ready to make the change. How can I remove the CC substrate withOUT removing my existing fauna? If I remove my livestock and live rock to a temp tub with heater, PH etc will they be ok for say 1-2 days or would you suggest only a few hours? What I'm considering is this..

removing the above items, then moving the existing CC/LS to one side of the tank. Add 2 inches of new SDS (SouthDownSand) to the bare bottom of the tank. move the CC/LS back on top of the SDS and repeat the process for the other half of the tank. Let the tank sit for a day to allow the critters in the CC/LS to settle into the SDS.

I'm thinking about then using a medium size hole strainer, like a wire mesh strainer to strain out the CC. My hopes are that this will allow the finer pieces of the existing LS and existing critters to fall through to the new SDS. After the CC has been removed I would add another 1/2 of SDS to the tank and wait another day. for the next few days I would add additional new SDS 1/2 inch at a time until I've gotten the DSB to the height I want. I would then return the LR and livestock to the tank. Then purchase a DSB revitilizer to replace the fauna lost in the process or the ones that didn't survive in the CC substrate.

thoughts please?
__________________
Acronyms and Abbreviations
BillyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 04:47 PM   #58
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,256
Send a message via ICQ to fishfreek Send a message via AIM to fishfreek Send a message via MSN to fishfreek Send a message via Yahoo to fishfreek
That sounds like a good process. One thing to note in doing this your gonna stir up a bunch of detrius into the water so having a large volume of water ready to do a water change would help possibly.

If your live rock is in a tub with a heater and powerheads to provide current it should be ok for a day or so.

With knowing how silty southdown sand can be you might want to add enough depth from the outset vs adding 1/2" a couple of times.
__________________
Remember dont tap the glass, your fish will think you're an idiot -Anonymous mother

Check out our articles area. 30+ Aquatic articles for your enjoyment
Are you in or around the Shenandoah Valley area? If so click here to join our regional forum.
fishfreek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 09:50 AM   #59
AA Team Emeritus
 
BillyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Western NY
Posts: 4,064
I'm actualy already prepared for that. I bought a 3, 22 gallon rougnecks from HD when I bought the sand ($3.97 each! roughnecks AND the sand!). I'll have two of those full of new water for a water change. I have one more that I'll use to hold the rocks and livestock while I replace the substrate. Unfortunetly I probably wont have the free time to do this for a week or so :o/ but I'll be sure to post my experiences here.

Wish me luck.
__________________
Acronyms and Abbreviations
BillyZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2005, 02:23 AM   #60
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 193
BillyZ

Hi I'm curious your tank size and how much LR you have?
__________________

__________________
nsu7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bug, dsb, ugf

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When to replace CF bulb? RISEANDFLOAT General Hardware/Equipment Discussion 9 12-03-2007 06:26 PM
DSB vrs UGF lionfishlover General Hardware/Equipment Discussion 8 01-25-2006 09:45 AM
to replace or not to replace is the question scuba_steve Saltwater Reef Aquaria 2 07-08-2004 10:52 AM
Should I replace bioballs with LR CP_ThunderGod Saltwater & Reef - Getting Started 5 08-20-2003 05:26 PM
Who thinks I should replace my UGF+CC with a DSB skip_16157 Saltwater Reef Aquaria 6 12-17-2002 01:10 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.