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Old 06-07-2005, 07:23 PM   #101
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Well, I can switch to hypo fairly easily, I suppose. I guess I got the impression that cupramine was the way to go, but that's obviously my mistake reading your linked post again. <sigh>

Water changes and maybe replace the current polyfilter with the original polyfilter with carbon granules? I'm fairly certain my cupramine dose is under 0.5 right now.

How quickly can I drop the salinity and is it safe to possibly use my RO water before I get the TDS tests or not? I can siphon off a little water and replace it with a small bit of fresh to edge down the salinity.

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-07-2005, 07:47 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amahler
Water changes and maybe replace the current polyfilter with the original polyfilter with carbon granules? I'm fairly certain my cupramine dose is under 0.5 right now.
A carbon filter of any kind will help remove the copper. There is also a product from Poly-bio marine that works amazingly well at removing copper. It can also be used with hyposainity. It can help reduce nitrogen waste compounds that will foul the water.

Quote:
How quickly can I drop the salinity and is it safe to possibly use my RO water before I get the TDS tests or not? I can siphon off a little water and replace it with a small bit of fresh to edge down the salinity.
Until you can eliminate the RO unit as part of the earlier problem I would be wary. Might be an idea to get some from your last place. The salinity can safely be dropped in about 2-ish days.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATJ @ Petsforum
How do you treat?

It is very important that you can accurately measure the salinity or specific gravity of the water. Cheap hydrometers, especially the swinging arm variety, do not have enough accuracy. If the salinity is too low, it is possible the health of the fish will be compromised. If the salinity is too high, it may have no affect on the parasites, as discussed above. A refractometer is the safest method for measuring salinity. If you don't have access to a refractometer, a lab grade floating glass hydrometer should suffice.

The goal is to granularly reduce the salinity of the water to between 12 and 14ppt and leave it at that salinity for at least 4 weeks but preferably 6 weeks. Basically continue the treatment for at least 4 weeks after the last spots disappeared.

The salinity must be lowered gradually to give the fish time to adjust to the lower salinity and more importantly ensures the bacteria in the biological filter can adjust. It should take around 2 days to get from 35ppt to 14ppt.

Your starting point should be between 1.025 and 1.027. Replace about one fifth of the volume with RO, RO/DI or aged freshwater that has been well aerated. Repeat this 12, 24 and 36 hours later, monitoring the specific gravity along the way. After the fourth water change the specific gravity should be 1.010 or pretty close. Wait a few hours to make the final adjustment to get down to 1.009. Note that you can estimate the resulting specific gravity. If you are changing one fifth of the water and the current specific gravity is 1.025 the result will be:

((1.025*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.020 approx.

Then, after 12 hours:

((1.020*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.016 approx.

After 24 hours:

((1.016*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.013 approx.

After the 4th change:

((1.013*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.010 approx.


Water temperature influences specific gravity and if you heat water without changing the salinity the specific gravity will decrease. As the goal is to keep the salinity between 12 and 14ppt it is important to know the temperature as well as the specific gravity.

What temperature should you use? Some people have argued that raising the temperature is good because it speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. While this is true, the elevated temperature also raises the metabolic rate of the fish causing increased oxygen and energy consumption and somewhat negating the benefits of the hyposalinity. Temperatures close to "normal", those the fish are used to, will be the best. Ensure the temperature is taken into consideration for the specific gravity.

While the fish are being treated it is extremely important to closely monitor the pH and specific gravity. Unless you are treating in a well established tank with an established biological filter there will be a tendency for the pH to drop and this must be monitored. This can also happen in an establish tank due to the lower salinity. If the pH starts to drop, water should be changed or buffer very carefully added to the system. If the fish are sick, too rapid changes in pH will not be beneficial.

The specific gravity also must be monitored as excessive evaporation will cause the salinity to rise and possibly create suitable conditions for the free swimming parasite. If the salinity does rise, it may be necessary to extend the length of the treatment after the salinity has been lowered again.

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

When the treatment is complete, the salinity should be raised gradually to normal over a number of days. Water changes with normal or even high salinity water is the easiest way to get the salinity up. Calculations using averages, as before, can be used to determine the appropriate specific gravity of the replacement water. If you replace one sixth of the 1.009 water with water at 1.025, the specific gravity will be raised to 1.012:

((1.009*5)+1.025)/6 = 1.012 approx.

As the salinity approaches normal it will be necessary to either replace more water in each change or use water with a higher than normal salinity. If you have been treating in a quarantine tank, you will need to leave the display tank with no fish in it for at least 30 days. This will ensures that all remaining parasites in the tank have gone through their full life cycle and the infective forms have died.

If you have been treating in the display tank, you should wait some time before returning any invertebrates or live rock to ensure that the biological filter has had time to adjust to the salinity and load.
Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:01 PM   #103
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Cool - this is helpful (as always).

I'll start the changes and hope it's not too late for him. I do have a refractometer, so I'm fairly confident in the salinity measurements I'm getting.

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-07-2005, 08:04 PM   #104
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Also, is there an acceptable target TDS? 0 is likely the best, I imagine, but what is tolerable so I have some guidelines while I seek to get it tested?

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-08-2005, 10:43 AM   #105
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If you add the the DI stage, anything under 5 is good but like you said zero being ideal. If no DI stage, upto 50 is not unheard of. Both being dependant on the TDS of the water before filtering. The higher it is the higher the end results and vise versa.

I have tap water TDS of 11 and zero reading from the DI.

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Old 06-08-2005, 11:07 AM   #106
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I just spoke with our environmental sciences professor (he called me this morning) and we're planning to do some extensive water testing tomorrow. I hope to have some pretty detailed and accurate profiles of this and that and I'll report back my findings.

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:12 AM   #107
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Cheers
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Old 06-08-2005, 08:48 PM   #108
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Not to sound utterly negative, but I'm predicting the Angel is on the way out... maybe tonight. He still refuses to eat and his face and body are getting a gaunt, sunken appearance. His breathing is very labored as well and he spends a good deal of time near the bottom.

Water parameters (within the scope of what I can test so far) are fine. Cupramine is being reduced with the carbon, but there hasn't been any detectable rise in ammonia or nitrites.

I'm hoping for the best and will do what I can, but I'm fully prepared for this being the end of this very expensive and sad adventure.

After the rather expensive adventure starting with his purchase followed by all the hurried QT build-out activities, I'm unsure of how to proceed. The QT stuff is a decent investment for the future (yes, too late, but at least I'm up and going), so I don't consider it waste. I don't like putting a dollar figure on the Angel, of course, since I really like him a great deal... but there's no denying that's an expensive learning experience (bad luck or otherwise).

My QT experience thus far has me terrified of moving the rest of the inhabitants since they seem to be doing just dandy (ich present or not). However, I want to conquer the ich issue so I can move on with less headaches and correct prior mistakes.

Assuming I lose the angel and the other fish remain fine for the forseeable future in the main tank, how should I best proceed on a less manic schedule for getting their ich addressed? Is hypo salinity going to be totally reliable AND can I properly gauge the success of it on fish that are already showing little if any signs of it? The butterfly periodically has what looks like ich dots, but they are always in the morning and generally gone in very short order. On that basis, I could never say with ANY certainty that I was seeing ich or just stuff stuck on him from being more idle during the night. The angel was the first definite sign of a real ich outbreak and, chicken or egg, proof positive the cycle has started in this tank.

The big variable right now, of course, is my RO-processed well water. I hope to have solid information on that tomorrow. Assuming THAT goes well (or gets addressed if I find problems), should I focus on a full-blown cycling of the QT tanks and making them more inhabitable for a future hypo-salinity treatment of the other fish (and eventual use as a real QT for new lifestock)?

In other words, what is the general timeline and suggested path for going forward from today's problems to my eventual, ich-free tank with a proper QT of future livestock?

Again, I hate to talk prematurely about the Angel's demise, but it just simply does not look good.

- Aaron
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:24 AM   #109
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Water parameters (within the scope of what I can test so far) are fine. Cupramine is being reduced with the carbon, but there hasn't been any detectable rise in ammonia or nitrites.
You should also be "diluting" with water changes. Make sure the carbon is changed out for new a few times as well.

Quote:
The big variable right now, of course, is my RO-processed well water. I hope to have solid information on that tomorrow. Assuming THAT goes well (or gets addressed if I find problems), should I focus on a full-blown cycling of the QT tanks and making them more inhabitable for a future hypo-salinity treatment of the other fish (and eventual use as a real QT for new lifestock)?
Keeping a QT operating and properly cycled while aquiring fish is the best way to go. You will have a more suitable environment for the fish to transition in and if no treatment is required, much less stressful on them overall. There is a good possibility a chosen treatment may change that but it's still worth the effort.

Quote:
Assuming I lose the angel and the other fish remain fine for the forseeable future in the main tank, how should I best proceed on a less manic schedule for getting their ich addressed? Is hypo salinity going to be totally reliable AND can I properly gauge the success of it on fish that are already showing little if any signs of it? The butterfly periodically has what looks like ich dots, but they are always in the morning and generally gone in very short order. On that basis, I could never say with ANY certainty that I was seeing ich or just stuff stuck on him from being more idle during the night. The angel was the first definite sign of a real ich outbreak and, chicken or egg, proof positive the cycle has started in this tank.


In other words, what is the general timeline and suggested path for going forward from today's problems to my eventual, ich-free tank with a proper QT of future livestock?
The problem with C. irritans is as long as a fish remains in the display system, so will the parasite. A very healthy fish can sometimes withstand heavy onsloughts through aquired immunity or with some having innate immunity. Both usually being short lived and easily triggered by a stress event and/or new addition. This is what leads many hobbyest to incorrectly believe in the myth ich is always present in fish. It isn't by any means true and completely possible to remove permanently as long as future additions are done so cautiously and appropriately. The only way to accomplish this in an already stocked tank is removing all the fish and fallowing the tank for 6-8 weeks.

I would not want you to feel that there is a chance of risking any more livestock so I would continue with the angel for now. Please be absolutely sure while lowering the salinity as indicated above you check alk and pH daily. Twice daily during the initial drop process. You will quite often need to buffer the water to help maintain the pH due to the dilution of the saltmix's chemistry. This is the main danger during the hypo process along with the usual nitrogen issues. Salinity must be monitored daily and never be allowed to get above 16 ppt which is why I personally recommend a 14 ppt operating level as a buffer for evap.

Seachem's response on the color change in the other QT was as I thought, it should not cause any change in water clarity. This leads me to wonder if it is definately a problem with your source water, a contaminate in the QT itself or faulty test kits.

Hopefully the collegue testing things for you may reveal some possitive results.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:49 AM   #110
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I have been using cupramine along with you, and have had crystal clear water...FWIW.
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