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Old 06-01-2005, 02:15 AM   #21
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Tossing a new fish already obviously stressed into some rubbermaid container full of fresh salt water just seems to go against common sense. Alk/Ph/Salinity/Temp all would have to be right on
Of course you would match these up as close as possible.......

There are many different beliefs, but once you got it, you got it. Ich can kill if not treated. It is a choice you will have to make...
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:24 AM   #22
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How long will he stay in QT and what is the preferred treatment?
A 20 gal long or larger if you can afford it would be better but not a 10 gal. Treatment time will depend on what you choose, personally I would highly recommend hyposalinity. The treatment period is longer (4 weeks) but it is the least stressful to the fish and you can more easily control water quality issues. You just need to monitor alk/pH very closely and test daily as well as salinity levels. Copper will require 14-21 days depending on which type you get, Cupramine being the more prefered.

In either case though, be sure the main tank is fallowed of any fish for 6-8 weeks and the fish is monitored in the QT for at least two weeks after treatment to ensure it was successful and no secondary infections have developed.

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Old 06-01-2005, 11:48 AM   #23
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This brings me back to my questions about ich in general. If it always lives in my tank and none of my other fish have it, does the fact that a fish comes down with it mean they all will? The theory is his immune system is weakened but the others are not.
An otherwise healthy fish does have the ability to fight of the parasite better than an ailing or stessed fish but any kind of immunity is generally short lived. The higher the theront level becomes with each new lifecycle, the more likely the healthy fish will succumb. The problem with that is the fish is still a carrier.

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It there any level of immunity fish develop from prior cases?
Most definately but again, it is typically shorted lived and re-occurances are easily triggered. The fish will have needed to come in contact with it previously as well.

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Is it that a fish succumbing increases the level of attack they are resisting normally and that starts a domino effect?
If I understand what you mean, kinda sorta. The more fish that become infested or the more even a single fish becomes infested means that many more theronts are released at each new turn of the lifecycle. Once C. irritans is in a tank, the only means of being rid of it is fallowing the tank and treating all the fish wether they look infested or not.

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Also, is the cleaner shrimp picking off the actual parasites when he's working?
The shrimp does not actually target the parasite. It grabs whatever it can pull off easily. Body slime, scales and so on. The shrimp cannot actually deal with the ones that have burrowed into the epithelium and not all of the trophonts are going to grow to a size where the shrimp will even notice them. At the very best, all it will do is create a kind of equilibrium where the parasite and fish co-exist. The parasite will remain which makes absolutely no sense. It is easily killed of via treatment and ensuring all new additions are introduced via QT, the chances of it occuring again are vitually eliminated.


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I sure hope he's not a desperately hungry fish. He's had a few inches of seaweed in the tank for two out of the four days (eaten entirely), does lots of picking among the rocks and has eaten well during the feedings. To add to the paranoia, how does one draw a line between underfeeding and overfeeding?
Angels and most other fish species need much more than seaweed to thrive. All fish need a balanced diet. The seaweed should be used as a grazing food, not a main meal especially for a large angel species. They still require meats and other natural food sources. I would suggest one to two strips of algae sheets daily and then some sort of frozen angel food preparation every second day. Ocean Nutrition products are quite excellent. You can also make your own blender mush.

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Old 06-01-2005, 11:52 AM   #24
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I'm really starting to wonder what I'm going to do overall now. The advice I'm getting mostly overlaps (with various differences in details), but overall it points to QT. I can accept that. What I'm not sure about, though, is how I'm going to put five fish in a 20 gallon tank and keep it workable for a month or two months.

These five fish fit decently in a 90 gallon tank together... but wouldn't cramming them all together in a 20 gallon with medications and hyposalinity just stress them insanely? I'm not sure I could even make enough hiding places for them in that space to matter. Then there is the bio-load on a small filtration setup...

That's based on making my tank fallow for 6 - 8 weeks (which, incidentally, is going to run right into going out of town for a week and a few days and already needing someone to keep an eye on things... not sure they will cope with these added requirements and I hate the throught of re-introduction just before I leave).

I'm thinking the most feasible thing for me to pull off is QT for the angel with treatment, maybe reducing the salinity in the main tank slowly and watching everyone. Of course, the prediction here is that he'd just get ich again upon return to the main (even if the others do not and assuming he survives) or everyone is going to come down with it soon regardless.

Of course, I've read about 100 posts on the topic in various places around the web and that gives me at least 90 different suggested methods, all of which have been a proven success for somebody at some point.

I'm not griping about any of the advice here... I really need it and I appreciate it (so please keep it coming), but I'm trying to find that workable solution and/or answer some of the questions in my head as I sort it all out.

I feel like every hour I spend weighing options (and/or having to do just normal things with life like work) is an hour closer to a tank crash or some other disaster. On the other hand, rushing out the door and throwing something together could be just as bad if I don't think it through.

I'm not giving up here... just going through that window of irritation I suspect we all feel when it's going so well and then suddenly goes south when you least expect it.

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:55 AM   #25
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What is in the tank other than fish, LR and the mobile inverts?

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Old 06-01-2005, 11:56 AM   #26
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Steve-S,

Thanks for the point by point clarifications on my earlier ich questions. That helps fill in some blanks for me.

I need to clarify on the feeding comments I made: The seaweed I was talking about was in there for grazing above and beyond the feeding. He's been eating good amounts of at least two Ocean Nutrition foods. Some Angel Foruma and some Formula Two each night. So I'm definitely not saying seaweed was his diet... I saw it as an ongoing source in addition to grazing on the rock AND the daily normal feedings for the core diet.

Also, assuming ich was in my tank already (but not appearing on my fish whatsoever prior to his introduction)... would his outbreak to this extent in this short timeframe be unusual? Was he likely carrying it or succumbing to what existed in my tank already? Again, 1:30 AM the prior night and I see no signs at all. End of the next day (so, I suspect earlier but not when I was looking in the tank) and he's positively covered. It was like somebody flipped a switch.

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Old 06-01-2005, 12:02 PM   #27
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Heh - we seem to be responding to each other rapid-fire, so I suspect I'm going to overlap on some pre-answered questions here. Sorry if it's a bit disjointed.

The tank is currently a Double Saddle Butterfly (about 3"), a small Scopas Tang (1.5" or so), and two small paired Percula Clowns (1.5" or so in length). The problem child is the 4" Imperator. So far as I can tell this morning, nobody else appears infected. They certainly didn't last night. I'll be checking again in a bit.

Anyway - everybody seems to have room in 90 gallons with rock... but a 20 gallon QT?

- Aaron
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:04 PM   #28
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In addition to the above, the inverts are a bunch of little tiny Scarlet Hermits who keep busy constantly and one cleaner shrimp (extensively discussed and photographed in other posts).

There is about 90 pounds of live rock in this tank (some in the sump, the rest in the display).

- Aaron
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:10 PM   #29
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Also, assuming ich was in my tank already (but not appearing on my fish whatsoever prior to his introduction)... would his outbreak to this extent in this short timeframe be unusual?
Yes. Once a new fish is introduced, the parasite becomes even more active. Either the angel introduced it (more likely) or the other fish had it (less likely) but where not exhibiting signs. Once the equilibrium of the tank is disturbed, the little pests spur to action like there's no tomorrow.

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Was he likely carrying it or succumbing to what existed in my tank already? Again, 1:30 AM the prior night and I see now signs at all. End of the next day (so, I suspect earlier but not when I was looking in the tank) and he's positively covered. It was like somebody flipped a switch.
The parsite has about a 5-7 day life on the fish itself, sometimes shorter depending on environment and temperature. The problem is you have no way of knowing how long when you aquire the animal. It can appear rather quick to us when in fact it's simpley part and parcel of it's life cycle. Add to that most LFS use at least some level of copper in their fish systems to keep parasites at bay. Unfortunately it is rarely high enough to be effective and the fish is usually not in the treatment long enough to erradicate it. Once added to a more appropriate environment, they quickly multiply.

If only a few survived to enter your system, it can be unseen for the first few life cycles do to low theront density then boom. It only takes one of the little PITA's to make a mountain of a mole hill.

Please read...
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

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Old 06-01-2005, 12:15 PM   #30
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In addition to the above, the inverts are a bunch of little tiny Scarlet Hermits who keep busy constantly and one cleaner shrimp (extensively discussed and photographed in other posts).
If a QT becomes out of the question, I would suggest hyposalinity in the main tank. You would need to remove ½ the rock and all the inverts. The only thing that will survive is the fish and bacteria for the most part. The removed rock will need to be QT'd in a bucket or bin with a powerhead and heater for about 2 months. The inverts are not carriers but they will not survive the hyposalinity process. Either back to the LFS or a makeshift holding tank.

I would still suggest you get the proper equipment for a basic QT. As you can see, the choice would have been moot. One fish treated as apposed to all this hassle.

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