It was a fun three days... <sigh>

[badfish]

Check out www.hirocks.com, i beleive it was $48 bucks for 30lbs of the good stuff with Shipping, that was actually cheaper than my LFS, cheaper then 2 bucks a pound. Shipping is hit or miss, i got mine within a couple of days, but a buddy of mine it took like two weeks, it really depends on how you pay.

 

[amahler]

Wow, it's been one of those evenings where you run all over town.

I picked up two 20 gallon long aquariums, a pair of heaters and a twelve pound piece of "reef bone" at my LFS. That's the piece of rock I plan to test and crack up to add to my sump (discussed a few posts back). I'll do the vinegar thing later and report back.

The two 20's are for the pair of QT tanks I've been discussing with everyone's help in this thread.

Next stop was Petsmart down the road where I snagged a pair of Marineland Penguin 200 Bio-Wheel HOB filter kits. They are rated for 200 GPH, so I figure I'll get decent circulation in these 20's. The box looked like it had one of those polyfilter/carbon inserts and a sponge insert. I got home and found out the sponge part is optional and not included (gggrrr), so I'll try to find some here at the house that is unused or go out (yet again) for that tomorrow. Dangit. I might just cut this one and empty out the carbon bits.

I also bought a 60 pound tub of Instant Ocean salt since I'm going through it pretty fast with my main and now the QTs.

I stopped by Lowes next and snagged a few 2" and 3" PVC fittings of various types to distribute between the tanks.

Last stop was Wal-Mart (gggrrrr again) to get a buttload of water. I've been buying their "Drinking Water" (RO/DI/Carbon/etc) water in 1 gallon jugs lately for my water changes while I work out a booster pump arrangement for my Kent RO unit. I set a new record by getting 42 jugs in one shopping cart and endured all the strange looks while I carefully steered several hundred pounds of water to the checkout lane.

My car was sitting a bit low in the back on the way home from this trip.

Anyway, I'm setting up the tanks now in a spare bathroom in the back of the house. I'll send some pictures later for those interested in seeing the festivities (if you want to call them that).

I'm about to mix up 22 or so gallons of water in my usual mixing trashcan to prepare it for tomorrow. I'll pull 20 gallons out of the main and put the new water in its place (effectively a water change for the main) and move the removed main water to the first QT tank. I'll repeat this process again later in the weekend to fill the second QT tank. I'll also throw as many bio-balls in the HOB filter as I can fit from my wet/dry.

I had a thought while I was out, though. Some years ago when I thought I might be getting back into saltwater I jumped on a deal on eBay and bought a Tidepool-2 BioWheel system (unused) from somebody. Got a great price on it. At the time, biowheels were still something of the rage. It's rated for 80 - 200 gallon tanks.

Needless to say, I never used it and it's still sitting in my attic in the box.

Anybody see any application for it in this QT setup? I'd think I could run both tanks off this thing rather easily with a little basic plumbing and a not too expensive pump. Too much trouble or stick with the HOBs I already bought? Just a thought...

I'll have some photos and questions later. The Cupramine should arrive tomorrow from Marinedepot so I can start the treatment process.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

Anybody see any application for it in this QT setup? I'd think I could run both tanks off this thing rather easily with a little basic plumbing and a not too expensive pump. Too much trouble or stick with the HOBs I already bought? Just a thought...

It could easily run both tanks but you would incur more cost (requires overflows) and it would become a QT only piece of equipement. Keep in mind running two tanks like this is hopefully a one time occurance. Given all future additions will be QT'd, you will only need to maintain one of these 20's, not both. If the cost of the overflows is cheaper than the HOB's (which I doubt), then mabye it's something to consider.

Cheers
Stve

 

[amahler]

I was digging around in the box last night and one of the first things I pulled out was an overflow that comes with it.

Of course, that's just a single overflow unit and not two. Might possibly be worth using for the final single QT tank... but I don't know that I'd have that running all the time anyway since I won't be buying new livestock all the time (I hope).

In any case, do you have any predictions on roughly the amount of water I'll be needing to change out on these QTs? Likely daily? I'll be getting my RO unit online here in a few days so I can quit buying water at Wal-Mart.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

Might possibly be worth using for the final single QT tank... but I don't know that I'd have that running all the time anyway since I won't be buying new livestock all the time (I hope).

If you do end up using it, be sure it's on the tank with the angel and the other large fish. It would be the most beneficial.

In any case, do you have any predictions on roughly the amount of water I'll be needing to change out on these QTs? Likely daily?

Definately daily, even 2x daily in the first week or two. It really depends on how well the bacteria adapt with the Cupramine treatment. It will greatly retard biological nitrification but will not eliminate it completely. Keep in mind that with this kind of a set up there is only aerobic nitrification being provided so nitrate and DOC will still be a large concern.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

Ok, the first QT is now in operation. Here's what I did:

- Took 20 gallons from the main to start the QT
- Placed as many bio-balls as I could fit from the main tank in the back of the HOB filter
- Put the first 2mL of Cupramine in the water (1 mL per 10.5 gallons)
- Adjusted the heater and let the whole system sit for an hour or more to monitor the temperature - seems stable but I'm checking constantly
- Put the new water I made last night into the main and got it fired back up

I took pictures of the setup to share:

http://sparhawk.sbc.edu/tank/quarantine

After a couple of hours, I embarked on the first fish catching spree. What a royal pain...

My tank is a 90 acrylic and has two decent sized openings in the top. This means you don't have a completely open top and there is a significant center divider to deal with. Mix in the rock work and you can imagine just how much fun this can be.

I got somewhat lucky on the Imperator after about ten or twelve minutes since he ducked into a little cave made up of a few rocks that are very easily moved. We call it the "garage" since it's where the cleaner shrimp (Jacques) has taken up residence and services visitors.

He came out the back again (only one way in and out) when I lifted off the roof and he happened to swim pretty much right into my clear plastic hang-on collection box (same kind they use in the fish stores). I was shocked I managed to get him.

The Scopas Tang was a great deal more difficult since he's much smaller and so fast that it seems like he teleports rather than swims. It took me a lot longer since he was more inclined to weave in and out of the rockwork. He finally got cornered and swam into the clear collection container as well. Frankly, I think I got lucky - it could have taken forever...

The little Scopas seems to be a bit more scared of his new environment. He's swimming fine, but for the ten minutes or so I watched him in the QT he just paddled in a small circle near the intake without really exploring yet. He's got lots of PVC to hide in. Hopefully he'll relax soon and do more exploring. The Imperator is roaming around in his usual slow way.

Tomorrow after 20 more gallons of water are ready, I'll repeat today's steps with the other QT and everybody will be completely moved.

Now begins the obnoxious process of watching the levels and temperature like a hawk...

I'll keep everybody posted and put up more pictures if there is anything interesting. Any suggestions or comments, please let'er'rip.

Thanks!
- Aaron

:x :x

 

[badfish]

Hey aaron, glad to see things are coming along, and man do i want your camera . Anyway, you might want to pick up some eggcrate to cover your tanks, thats what i did, but i also have a cat and was afraid of him going in. I totally know the looks you get when your wheeling along 40 gallons of water in walmart.

 

[badfish]

Pics of my QT with eggcrate top if your interested

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d822b3127cce91af8c64433600000016108AaOGjdi4Ztq

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d822b3127cce91af8c62433000000016108AaOGjdi4Ztq

 

[amahler]

Badfish - thanks for the suggestion. I think I might do that.

At the moment, the bathroom is closed and it's off a room in the house that is also closed (and usually remains so for the very reason of keeping the cat out).

He's sneaky, though, and two seconds with your back turned is all it takes for him to show up in any place he know's he not normally allowed. Our cat LOVES that which is taboo - he has a radar.

Right now I'm still fiddling with the heater. It's staying within a couple of degrees - but it's still in that fiddly stage where I don't trust it. I might have to go get some more expensive (dangit!) heaters with true thermostats like what I see in your pictures.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Is a seaweed clip in the tank with the Angel and the Scopas (say two inches of seaweed) ok or too much for this size tank under these conditions?

Any advice on feeding would be much appreciated.

These are the two fish that usually murder the seaweed clip overnight.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

It's not too much as long as it gets eaten before it falls apart. Just be sure to siphon out any remnants or detritus after the fact. You should still feed similar amounts of grazing foods just do smaller portions more often. Cut back on any frozen foods and such to every second day. Finding a balance between keeping their immune systems high and water quality can be a challenge, especially at first but try not to sacrifice one for the other.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

They don't appear to have cared for the seaweed this time around. It looked to be pretty much the same as it was when I placed it in there except it was starting to break up. They are eating the other foods fairly well, though.

I've been constantly using a plastic tube with my thumb over the end to siphon out ANYTHINGI see in there: food, poop, whatever. I figure the more I take out, the more I'm saving myself on the water change rate, etc.

I did a test last night and the ammonia had gotten to a light green on the color chart that was between zero and the first measured stage (0.5 mg/L). I'd say it was maybe 0.2 or 0.3 mg/L based on the color. I did a water change of about 5 gallons (this is a 20 gallon tank) and it definitely reduced it, but not QUITE to zero. I've been making more R/O water since and should be able to do another 5 gallons or so today. My nitrites checked out as zero.

I've got a couple of questions, though (of course):

- I -just- did the second cupramine dose (the one after 48 hours). That's about 2mL for this tank bringing the total added so far to 4 mL. I checked before I did this dose and the copper test was so pale blue as to suggest it might even be my imagination if it was blue at all. I'll check again today after this second dose has time to mix and see if it registers yet. The test kit is good since the reference water registers fine.

- I have one SeaChem Ammonia Alert thingie suction-cupped in each tank. The measurements on it look like it should have changed color - but it remains yellowish like before I installed it. Yes, I remembered to take of the plasic strip covering it. Point is - my test kit registered ammonia that the Ammonia Alert has not. Am I misreading it or is the thing useless?

- Last night when I found the ammonia up a bit, I did a water change. Since it was about 5 gallons of water, I put 0.5 mL of Cupramine (kit says 1 mL per 10.5 gallons) in the new water before adding it. This sound right? I don't want to have diluted it the QT.

- In the future, if I dose new water before adding it in a water change, do I want to target the new water being equal to the tank water? That would prevent dillution right? Or is there some kind of compounding buildup here I need to worry about and should I compensate in the water changes somehow?

- My pH has slipped about 0.5 as of this morning (from around 8.5 to around 8.0). Should I be buffering it with a pH correcting kit of some sort? I think I have one made by Kent on hand.

- Stick purely to water changes or are any of the ammonia killing additives worthwhile to help in the process? My gut feeling is no, but I thought I'd ask.

- Last question: The Imperator and the Scopas are both seeming pretty much ok. They eat lightly (not voraciously), etc. They are not terribly active, though. They tend to hang somewhat near each other on the far end of the tank. The Scopas in particular seems to not be willing to roam around at all while the Imperator is more inclined to venture around the full tank from time to time as well as go into one of the pipes. The majority of the time, however, they just tend to float in place paddling their fins and only roam in a range not longer than a few body lengths in either direction - more if they see food nearby. Is this normal for their life in QT?

That's the story and my questions thus far. I think things are going ok and my only worries are the fact that the two fish currently in QT don't move around nearly as much as they did in the main tank. Do fish get bored?

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

They don't appear to have cared for the seaweed this time around. It looked to be pretty much the same as it was when I placed it in there except it was starting to break up. They are eating the other foods fairly well, though.

Try brocolli fluorets. Last longer and are quite nutritious. Make sure they have been previosly frozen to break down the fibers making them easier to digest.

I did a test last night and the ammonia had gotten to a light green on the color chart that was between zero and the first measured stage (0.5 mg/L). I'd say it was maybe 0.2 or 0.3 mg/L based on the color. I did a water change of about 5 gallons (this is a 20 gallon tank) and it definitely reduced it, but not QUITE to zero. I've been making more R/O water since and should be able to do another 5 gallons or so today. My nitrites checked out as zero.....- I have one SeaChem Ammonia Alert thingie suction-cupped in each tank. The measurements on it look like it should have changed color - but it remains yellowish like before I installed it. Yes, I remembered to take of the plasic strip covering it. Point is - my test kit registered ammonia that the Ammonia Alert has not. Am I misreading it or is the thing useless?

Rely moreso on the alert badge than the test kit. Salycilate test kist are not very accurate when treating with Cupramine due to the amines. They will often give a false positive.

- I -just- did the second cupramine dose (the one after 48 hours). That's about 2mL for this tank bringing the total added so far to 4 mL. I checked before I did this dose and the copper test was so pale blue as to suggest it might even be my imagination if it was blue at all. I'll check again today after this second dose has time to mix and see if it registers yet. The test kit is good since the reference water registers fine.
- Last night when I found the ammonia up a bit, I did a water change. Since it was about 5 gallons of water, I put 0.5 mL of Cupramine (kit says 1 mL per 10.5 gallons) in the new water before adding it. This sound right? I don't want to have diluted it the QT.

Your actually diluting the dosage. 0.5 ml is only ½ a proper dosage for a 5 gal water volume. The full dosage is 1ml/10.5 gal x2. So you need just shy of 1 ml/5 gal or 4 drops/gal.

- In the future, if I dose new water before adding it in a water change, do I want to target the new water being equal to the tank water? That would prevent dillution right? Or is there some kind of compounding buildup here I need to worry about and should I compensate in the water changes somehow?

Dose the change water exactly the same level as the QT. When you change the water you are diluting the Cupramine level otherwise.

- My pH has slipped about 0.5 as of this morning (from around 8.5 to around 8.0). Should I be buffering it with a pH correcting kit of some sort? I think I have one made by Kent on hand.

Could simpley be lack of aeration. Try placing a low flow powerhead at the surface for agggitation and if possible keep a window open in the room. Being a small room with the door closed, CO2 will build up and lower pH. Ensure environmental conditions are on par before adding any chemicals.

- Stick purely to water changes or are any of the ammonia killing additives worthwhile to help in the process? My gut feeling is no, but I thought I'd ask.

Only water changes, never use ammonia binders with Cupramine. Being it is amine based you risk breaking the chemical bonds. It can quickly poison the tank.

- Last question: The Imperator and the Scopas are both seeming pretty much ok. They eat lightly (not voraciously), etc. They are not terribly active, though. They tend to hang somewhat near each other on the far end of the tank. The Scopas in particular seems to not be willing to roam around at all while the Imperator is more inclined to venture around the full tank from time to time as well as go into one of the pipes. The majority of the time, however, they just tend to float in place paddling their fins and only roam in a range not longer than a few body lengths in either direction - more if they see food nearby. Is this normal for their life in QT?

They will be marginally stressed from the move and wary of a new environment. Give them time to adjust and they should adapt. If they do not show improvement behavior and eating wise, drop the salinity a point or two, somewhere about 1.021ish but no lower. Lowering osmotic pressure some can often relieve stress and help an otherwise stressed fish.

Cheers
Steve

 

[revhtree]

Wow good info Steve! So we should rely mostly on the ammonia badge? Will the copper mess with the nitrite test as well?

Hey Steve when you get time..... http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=53937&highlight=

 

[amahler]

Steve-s,

As always, thanks for all the great info!

I'm unclear on the dosage guidelines. From their site (and on the back of the bottle):

Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.

I did 2 mL on Friday and 2mL more today for a total of 4mL. In my mind, that's (approximated) 1mL per 10.5 gallons, or 2mL in 20 gallons (which is a tad higher concentration, of course, when you ignore that extra gallon). Between the first and second dose, I swapped 5 gallons of water which I dosed with 0.5 mL (1mL per 10.5 divided by two is close to 0.5ml) before adding the new water. In theory, wasn't the tank then at the same concentration as before the water change and therefore ready for the second dose of 2mL?

I'm not sure I get the x2 you mentioned.

Maybe I'm being obtuse.

I'm going to go check it again in a sec to see if registers on the test kit.

I had forgotten about the badges being accurate and the test kits not when it comes to ammonia and false positives. In fact, I read that and ordered the badges due to that very recommendation and then went and forgot last night when I did a test.

So - should I do my changes WHEN the badge shifts to the first warning color (or goes even slightly off the normal yellow), or just do them regardless?

If I should do them regardless, would 5 gallons per day be a sane amount assuming the badge is NOT changing color?

I'll keep an eye on their behavior. It's feeding time right now, actually.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

In addition to the above description, I've just come back from the nightly feeding.

Water temp is fine, salinity is about 1.023, ammonia appears to be nil (the badge remains unchanged) and nitrites are still zero.

The fish are very inactive - just hovering around the same area of the far end of the tank near each other. I don't think either fish ate anything tonight.

I also noticed the water in their tank is less crystal than the other QT next to it that is still fishless. The water in both tanks came from the main and the water swapout I did of five gallons last night was using remaining main tank water from setting up the QT on Friday. So that means the water and the salt are same.

So... any ideas what's up? Am I killing my fish instead of curing them?

All of this has me hesitant to move the other fish from the main into the second QT until I know the first QT is moving along properly.

I'm doing the copper test right now and I don't think it's registering at all. I'll know in a few more minutes. The test water for the baseline that came with the kit started going blue immediately. My water does not. So maybe I have underdosed the Cupramine, but I'm not sure yet until I hear a response on the prior question so I can understand the dosing methods properly.

This has me mystified.

I did, however, crack the window in that room a bit and dropped a 105 GPH Mini-404 pump I had down into the middle of the tank to make even more surface movement. The bio-wheel filter in there is 200 GPH (rated for a 50 and this is a 20 tank) and it keeps the surface rippled pretty much all the time anyway.

Thoughts?
- Aaron

P.S. The poly filter screen in here is the one that came with the filter and is in the form of a blue poly and carbon granual sandwich on a plastic frame. I cut open the side of the poly part to reveal the carbon granuals and dump them all out before putting it in the tank the first day. If there are any carbon granuals in there, it's got to be just a couple at MOST. Is that going to give me any issues?

 

[amahler]

Quick update - my cupramine is showing up now (I hadn't let the test sit for ten minutes since I was writing that last note and not watching it). It's not quite as blue as the baseline test water that comes in the test, so I'd say I'm closer to 0.3 than 0.5.

I'll dose and test the water for the next change before adding it and try to stay around 0.5 if at all possible.

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Well, this QT process is starting to worry me.

Ammonia appears to be 0 or immeasurably low
Nitrites 0
Temp - 76
SG - 1.022 - 1.023
pH - 8.0 - 8.1
Cupramine - ~ 0.4

For the second day in a row I see no signs of eating. The fish just hover about, almost ALWAYS in the back corner of the tank nearest the heater. The breathing of the angel looks like it might be a little faster or labored - I can't tell.

The first couple of days they were eating pretty decently and moving around a good bit more. Not anymore.

The water is not crystal clear, but I can't figure out quite why. I'm not letting anything visible sit for long without it being siphoning out - poop, food, whatever.

I did two water changes today... 5 gal this morning and 5 more gallons just now.

I'm starting to think this is going downhill pretty fast and I'm not sure what to do. I haven't put the other fish into the other QT yet since this one appears to be failing and I don't really want to kill the whole gang. I'm also not making enough RO water yet to keep up with large water changes on two tanks - that should change tomorrow, I hope, with a booster pump.

Any thoughts? I'm getting beyond worried at this point. I don't want to put these two back in the main tank... but everybody needs to come out ultimately to fallow the tank and I don't want to kill these two trying to figure out what's wrong.

The HOB filter keeps the water moving on the surface all the time. I tossed in a small 106 GPH powerhead pump the other day and let it sit on the bottom. It just jets straight up and creates even more ripples on the surface... so I'd think oxygen exchange was decent.

Any thoughts?

- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

I'm unclear on the dosage guidelines. From their site (and on the back of the bottle):

Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.

I did 2 mL on Friday and 2mL more today for a total of 4mL. In my mind, that's (approximated) 1mL per 10.5 gallons, or 2mL in 20 gallons (which is a tad higher concentration, of course, when you ignore that extra gallon). Between the first and second dose, I swapped 5 gallons of water which I dosed with 0.5 mL (1mL per 10.5 divided by two is close to 0.5ml) before adding the new water. In theory, wasn't the tank then at the same concentration as before the water change and therefore ready for the second dose of 2mL?

I'm not sure I get the x2 you mentioned.

The initial dose is what's confusing you. 1 ml/10.5 gal x2 doses (1 dose day one and another 48 hrs later), correct?

So to achieve a full dose it's 2 ml/10.5 gal so to achieve a 5 gal full dosage for water change purposes would be (2ml/10.5gal)x(5)= 0.95 ml

As far as the sluggishness, I did suggest dropping the salinity some to 1.020-21 (26.6-27.9 ppt) will improve their disposition some and help with the loss of appetite. Copper no matter the type or brand does supress their appetite some and the reduced osmotic pressure will aide in this. You can also try a drop of garlic in their food (soaked beforehand) it will often spark some interest.

How is the midday pH now after the changes? You did not post a value?

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

So we should rely mostly on the ammonia badge? Will the copper mess with the nitrite test as well?

The ammonia badge will be the best source of detection when using Cupramine, yes. You could also use their mutitest ammonia kit it you prefer the "hands on" re-assurance. It should not interfere with nitrite or nitrate test kits. It's only the amines in the Cupramine that fool test kits into reading it as free (ionized) ammonia.

Cheers
Steve