It was a fun three days... <sigh>

[amahler]

I began lowering the salinity today, actually, so my apologies in not reporting that... it just hasn't gotten down enough yet (didn't want a sudden fall) to really know. I should be achieving measurable results by tomorrow.

pH has remained steady at about 8.0 or a tad higher. It's marginally lower than my main which is closer to 8.5... but it's certainly not dipped below 8.0. I'd say it's really not any different than the day before... but I will definitely be watching.

The dosage description makes a bit more sense to me now. I think I've been getting the tank dosage right (with the 48 hours)... I was misinterpreting your message in regarding to the 5 gallons in a water change.

Whatever the case, I'm monitoring to get the tank to 0.5 solidly and then making sure I dose the 5 gallons to an equal measurement before adding it each time.

Once I have known measurements for the change water, do I need to test it every time... or just stick to periodic tests of the QT itself? I'm going to burn through these test kits in no time flat if I check every change and the QT every single time. Granted, better safe than sorry... but I'm just wanting to know if the dosing is pretty reliable if I know that X amount does my bucket of replacement water reliably each time.

Finally - any thoughts on the water not remaining crystal clear? Do I need to be making water changes to such a degree that it stays clear... or is that just not something to target as long as the measurements of chemical levels remain safe?

As always, thanks!

- Aaron

P.S. I have some garlic mixture for this purpose... I'll hit that tomorrow.

 

[amahler]

Also - any thoughts on why they tend to hover fairly close to one another on one end of the tank? They've got the whole length to spread out. I just can't seem to pinpoint an environmental factor here.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

pH has remained steady at about 8.0 or a tad higher. It's marginally lower than my main which is closer to 8.5... but it's certainly not dipped below 8.0. I'd say it's really not any different than the day before... but I will definitely be watching.

As long as it remains at 8.0 or higher, don't be too concerned.

Once I have known measurements for the change water, do I need to test it every time... or just stick to periodic tests of the QT itself? I'm going to burn through these test kits in no time flat if I check every change and the QT every single time. Granted, better safe than sorry... but I'm just wanting to know if the dosing is pretty reliable if I know that X amount does my bucket of replacement water reliably each time.

The dosage is a matter of water volume so you should be fine with marking a "fill line" on the outside of the pail and ensuring the exact same dose each time.

Finally - any thoughts on the water not remaining crystal clear? Do I need to be making water changes to such a degree that it stays clear... or is that just not something to target as long as the measurements of chemical levels remain safe?

Not too sure on the color change, never experienced it myself. I would just keep a sharp eye on the water parameters and do the water changes as needed.

any thoughts on why they tend to hover fairly close to one another on one end of the tank? They've got the whole length to spread out. I just can't seem to pinpoint an environmental factor here

Most likely stress and the discomfort of a small environment, change and the treatment itself. You should hopefully see a positive change once the salinity is dropped a bit.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

Well, we lost the little Scopas Tang this morning. I found him laid on the bottom when I went in to check things. I have no idea why since he was swimming yesterday with no apparent problems other than what was described above.

He was one of our favorites and had never shown signs if ich... but he seemed best paired with the Angel in the process of getting everybody out of the tank. I'm more than a little alarmed that one of the healthiest fish is the one to go... not to mention sad that we lost him in particular.

My wife thinks I'm a fish murderer now since he wasn't ever obviously sick. That just helps a lot in an already stressful process.

I need to get past this ich problem, but I'm not about ready to move the others into QT yet with the way things are going. I'm just not sure how to proceed.


- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

Sorry for the loss

I can see your wifes point of view but the actions you have taken are for the better, not the worse. Having a healthy fish die makes no sense what so ever.

Please post all the water specs you have test kits for and also describe in detail how your are doing the copper test and what level it is.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

The other QT sitting next to this one has been completely unused in these days. It was made with main tank water as well and has had a matching filter with bio-balls from the main running on it. The water in it is crystal clear and the badge, of course, looks perfectly yellow (zero).

I'm describing this because, faced with the death of the Scopas and knowing he was likely in there during at least part of the night, as well as the other problems I discussed with water clarity, etc., I decided this morning to move the Angel from the left QT to the right.

Maybe this was a bad decision - but it seemed the fastest way to get to known good water parameters again. The temperature was a match, the SG was virtually even and both initial Cupramine doses had been done on it already. I'm checking the copper level right now and it appears to be a bit under 0.5, but definitely not over. The pH on this QT is also solid at around 8.4.

I decided to move the filter that has been running on the previous QT to this one (swapped them) in hopes that any gains I've made on the biologicals from the running QT would stay in place.

So, in a nutshell, we're looking at a system with:

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
pH - 8.4
SG - 1.022 - 1.023 (and I'm lowering this slowly)
Cu - ~0.3 or ~0.4 right now

The now fishless previous QT could be drained and re-established now, I suppose.

My other fish remain in the main until I've got a handle on this stuff. I hate losing time on getting the main fallowed - but I hate losing fish more. Besides, they seem healthy and happy.

Where to next?

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Oh - as for doing the copper test.

I have the Seachem kit suggested for use with the Cupramine.

I put in a level measuring spoon in one of the little cups, add two eyedroppers (up to the bulb) with tank water and mix it with the end of the spoon. I then add two drops from the test kit, mix it and left it sit about 10 minutes. After that, I just try to match the shade of blue (which, of course, is not the easiest thing in the world... but doable).

I ran the kit twice with the baseline water and it clearly works. In fact, since the baseline water is supposed to be 0.5 (and it looks to be), I used it once for a side by side color comparison with one of my samples to see how that all meshed with the shades on the card. It seems pretty accurate overall.

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

The water I am using for changes right now is RO water generated from the tap. I use a Kent Marine RO.

I'm transitioning from Wal-Mart RO/DI water in jugs to tap water (well water - not chlorinated) from the RO. It seems plenty decent from everything I can tell. No copper and no phosphates in the tests I've run on it.

- Aaron

 

[revhtree]

Sorry for all the trouble you are having. I too have lost a seemingly healthy fish in qt. You are going to have to move all your fish to qt. If you dont ich will stay in the main, and although your other fish dont show signs, you risk the chance of loosing any new additions as well as your angel.

Its hard I know, but the sooner you get your other fish into qt, the better for them all and the angel. It's time in qt will not draw out any longer than it has to be.

PS. Just a shot in the dark, but do you have a grounding probe on the tank?

 

[steve-s]

No nitrate test? Sorry, not sure if the readings above are the new or old QT, I was hoping you could post the levels of the tank first used or was that it. As far as the next steps, continue as you have, there is really not much else you can do. Just be sure you maintain the water quality as best you can.

I am still interested in how you are performing the copper test. I mean no insult but "operator error" has been a problem with many previously.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

I posted the copper test procedures just after the post to which you are replying - so they are there for the reading. I forgot to answer that initially, but came back to it.

I'll run a nitrate test and report back. My main tank has had somewhat high nitrates (which I'm lowering with a transition away from bio-balls), so I suspect it's on part with the main which is around 20. I'll run a specific check and let you know.

The numbers I posted cover both QTs since the only difference I can see between them (aside from the pH of the unused tank being -slightly- higher and better) was the clarity of the water on the unused one. That's why I'm irked... I'm not seeing problems in the original QT but decided to move him over one tank this morning after the Scopas death.

- Aaron

 

[amahler]

Rev,

No - I don't have a grounding probe... can you tell me more?

Would this relate to stray electrical activity? I've heard mention of that and have wondered if that's a possible factor but have no way to know.

- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

I have the Seachem kit suggested for use with the Cupramine.

I put in a level measuring spoon in one of the little cups, add two eyedroppers (up to the bulb) with tank water and mix it with the end of the spoon. I then add two drops from the test kit, mix it and left it sit about 10 minutes. After that, I just try to match the shade of blue (which, of course, is not the easiest thing in the world... but doable).

I don't know how I missed that post but I did, sorry 'bout that. All seems fine there.

I'm transitioning from Wal-Mart RO/DI water in jugs to tap water (well water - not chlorinated) from the RO. It seems plenty decent from everything I can tell. No copper and no phosphates in the tests I've run on it.

Have you tested the TDS coming from your RO to determine if it's working properly? The unit has prefilter carbon stages before the membrane?

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

Hello!

Yes, two prefilter stages before the membrane.

I also have completely new replacements for the prefilters AND the membrane that should arrive today as well as a booster pump. I'm trying to get to using all RO water and stop buying inredibly difficult to manage cart loads of water from Wal-Mart on a constant basis.

The RO unit was given to me along with the rest of the system. I was told the carts were in good shape, but I'm replacing it all just so I know for sure as well as adding the pump.

What other test should be run on the resulting water?

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

What other test should be run on the resulting water?

In regards to the RO, the best method of testing is with a TDS meter. Since you do not have a DI resin it seems, there is still the possibility of contaminates from the well water. You can use your standard tests but it may not tell you much. Since the unit seems to have been purchased used (?), there is a good possibility some of the filter parts are exhausted. If so, this could easily be part of your problem.

Has your well water ever been tested?

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

No - but I can get the well water and the RO water tested pretty soon, I think. I work for a small college with a good environmental sciences department (along with Chemistry and Biology) and I think they can do some pretty extensive tests for me.

I'll find out - I've been meaning to do it for a while.

Thanks!
- Aaron

P.S. How different are the DI units from groups like Kent, etc., in the aquarium products realm and the ones you buy for drinking water, etc., at places like Lowes? If I wanted to add a DI, could I get something locally that is reliable?

 

[steve-s]

P.S. How different are the DI units from groups like Kent, etc., in the aquarium products realm and the ones you buy for drinking water, etc., at places like Lowes? If I wanted to add a DI, could I get something locally that is reliable?

You should be able to get a DI part from Lowes, HD or even Ebay that will work very well. Parts for these units are rarely if ever manufacturer specific. If available I would suggest the clear re-fillable chamber. It's much easier to determine when it needs changing especially if you do not have a TDS meter.

Depending on the TDS of your well water before going through the RO membrane, it can still be as high as 50 ppm or more coming out. With the DI resin attached after the RO output, that can be reduced to between 0-5.

Cheers
Steve

 

[amahler]

I'm snagging an inexpensive TDS from eBay right now. I'll hopefully know more in a few days time. I'll also try to get it tested more immediately in some other way, but I figure I need the TDS for the long term if I'm operating an RO.

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[amahler]

The angel has no interest in eating whatsoever. Two pieces of food, soaked in garlic sit there without garnering his interest. One bounced off his head on the way down...

Scopas dead, Angel looking like he's next soon. So far my QTs look like a death setence instead of a place for cures. And, like I said, I don't see any obvious problem with levels to be causing this. Aside from the cupramine, the tank he was in was mostly main tank water and the tank he is in now is 100% main tank water.

Do I keep up with this, or put him back in the main for the meantime since ich is already a factor in there and try to figure out what's going on?

Thanks!
- Aaron

 

[steve-s]

I sent Seachem an e-mail on your behalf to see if they have any suggestions. The only thing I can possibley suggest otherwise is discontinue the treatment. The only thing that is coming to mind as possible problems is faulty readings/test kist or contaminated source water.

Run some carbon, do a few good sized water changes with well aged/aerated unmedicated SW. This should quickly remove the med. If the fish perks up after that, then something is definately amiss.

You would still need to treat the affected fish though. As I suggested in the beginning of this ordeal, hyposalinity is the best option overall.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?p=425266#425266

Cheers
Steve