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Old 06-05-2005, 01:10 PM   #71
steve-s
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It's not too much as long as it gets eaten before it falls apart. Just be sure to siphon out any remnants or detritus after the fact. You should still feed similar amounts of grazing foods just do smaller portions more often. Cut back on any frozen foods and such to every second day. Finding a balance between keeping their immune systems high and water quality can be a challenge, especially at first but try not to sacrifice one for the other.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-05-2005, 02:01 PM   #72
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They don't appear to have cared for the seaweed this time around. It looked to be pretty much the same as it was when I placed it in there except it was starting to break up. They are eating the other foods fairly well, though.

I've been constantly using a plastic tube with my thumb over the end to siphon out ANYTHINGI see in there: food, poop, whatever. I figure the more I take out, the more I'm saving myself on the water change rate, etc.

I did a test last night and the ammonia had gotten to a light green on the color chart that was between zero and the first measured stage (0.5 mg/L). I'd say it was maybe 0.2 or 0.3 mg/L based on the color. I did a water change of about 5 gallons (this is a 20 gallon tank) and it definitely reduced it, but not QUITE to zero. I've been making more R/O water since and should be able to do another 5 gallons or so today. My nitrites checked out as zero.

I've got a couple of questions, though (of course):

- I -just- did the second cupramine dose (the one after 48 hours). That's about 2mL for this tank bringing the total added so far to 4 mL. I checked before I did this dose and the copper test was so pale blue as to suggest it might even be my imagination if it was blue at all. I'll check again today after this second dose has time to mix and see if it registers yet. The test kit is good since the reference water registers fine.

- I have one SeaChem Ammonia Alert thingie suction-cupped in each tank. The measurements on it look like it should have changed color - but it remains yellowish like before I installed it. Yes, I remembered to take of the plasic strip covering it. Point is - my test kit registered ammonia that the Ammonia Alert has not. Am I misreading it or is the thing useless?

- Last night when I found the ammonia up a bit, I did a water change. Since it was about 5 gallons of water, I put 0.5 mL of Cupramine (kit says 1 mL per 10.5 gallons) in the new water before adding it. This sound right? I don't want to have diluted it the QT.

- In the future, if I dose new water before adding it in a water change, do I want to target the new water being equal to the tank water? That would prevent dillution right? Or is there some kind of compounding buildup here I need to worry about and should I compensate in the water changes somehow?

- My pH has slipped about 0.5 as of this morning (from around 8.5 to around 8.0). Should I be buffering it with a pH correcting kit of some sort? I think I have one made by Kent on hand.

- Stick purely to water changes or are any of the ammonia killing additives worthwhile to help in the process? My gut feeling is no, but I thought I'd ask.

- Last question: The Imperator and the Scopas are both seeming pretty much ok. They eat lightly (not voraciously), etc. They are not terribly active, though. They tend to hang somewhat near each other on the far end of the tank. The Scopas in particular seems to not be willing to roam around at all while the Imperator is more inclined to venture around the full tank from time to time as well as go into one of the pipes. The majority of the time, however, they just tend to float in place paddling their fins and only roam in a range not longer than a few body lengths in either direction - more if they see food nearby. Is this normal for their life in QT?

That's the story and my questions thus far. I think things are going ok and my only worries are the fact that the two fish currently in QT don't move around nearly as much as they did in the main tank. Do fish get bored?

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-05-2005, 02:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amahler
They don't appear to have cared for the seaweed this time around. It looked to be pretty much the same as it was when I placed it in there except it was starting to break up. They are eating the other foods fairly well, though.
Try brocolli fluorets. Last longer and are quite nutritious. Make sure they have been previosly frozen to break down the fibers making them easier to digest.


Quote:
I did a test last night and the ammonia had gotten to a light green on the color chart that was between zero and the first measured stage (0.5 mg/L). I'd say it was maybe 0.2 or 0.3 mg/L based on the color. I did a water change of about 5 gallons (this is a 20 gallon tank) and it definitely reduced it, but not QUITE to zero. I've been making more R/O water since and should be able to do another 5 gallons or so today. My nitrites checked out as zero.....- I have one SeaChem Ammonia Alert thingie suction-cupped in each tank. The measurements on it look like it should have changed color - but it remains yellowish like before I installed it. Yes, I remembered to take of the plasic strip covering it. Point is - my test kit registered ammonia that the Ammonia Alert has not. Am I misreading it or is the thing useless?
Rely moreso on the alert badge than the test kit. Salycilate test kist are not very accurate when treating with Cupramine due to the amines. They will often give a false positive.

Quote:
- I -just- did the second cupramine dose (the one after 48 hours). That's about 2mL for this tank bringing the total added so far to 4 mL. I checked before I did this dose and the copper test was so pale blue as to suggest it might even be my imagination if it was blue at all. I'll check again today after this second dose has time to mix and see if it registers yet. The test kit is good since the reference water registers fine.
- Last night when I found the ammonia up a bit, I did a water change. Since it was about 5 gallons of water, I put 0.5 mL of Cupramine (kit says 1 mL per 10.5 gallons) in the new water before adding it. This sound right? I don't want to have diluted it the QT.
Your actually diluting the dosage. 0.5 ml is only ¬Ĺ a proper dosage for a 5 gal water volume. The full dosage is 1ml/10.5 gal x2. So you need just shy of 1 ml/5 gal or 4 drops/gal.

Quote:
- In the future, if I dose new water before adding it in a water change, do I want to target the new water being equal to the tank water? That would prevent dillution right? Or is there some kind of compounding buildup here I need to worry about and should I compensate in the water changes somehow?
Dose the change water exactly the same level as the QT. When you change the water you are diluting the Cupramine level otherwise.

Quote:
- My pH has slipped about 0.5 as of this morning (from around 8.5 to around 8.0). Should I be buffering it with a pH correcting kit of some sort? I think I have one made by Kent on hand.
Could simpley be lack of aeration. Try placing a low flow powerhead at the surface for agggitation and if possible keep a window open in the room. Being a small room with the door closed, CO2 will build up and lower pH. Ensure environmental conditions are on par before adding any chemicals.

Quote:
- Stick purely to water changes or are any of the ammonia killing additives worthwhile to help in the process? My gut feeling is no, but I thought I'd ask.
Only water changes, never use ammonia binders with Cupramine. Being it is amine based you risk breaking the chemical bonds. It can quickly poison the tank.

Quote:
- Last question: The Imperator and the Scopas are both seeming pretty much ok. They eat lightly (not voraciously), etc. They are not terribly active, though. They tend to hang somewhat near each other on the far end of the tank. The Scopas in particular seems to not be willing to roam around at all while the Imperator is more inclined to venture around the full tank from time to time as well as go into one of the pipes. The majority of the time, however, they just tend to float in place paddling their fins and only roam in a range not longer than a few body lengths in either direction - more if they see food nearby. Is this normal for their life in QT?
They will be marginally stressed from the move and wary of a new environment. Give them time to adjust and they should adapt. If they do not show improvement behavior and eating wise, drop the salinity a point or two, somewhere about 1.021ish but no lower. Lowering osmotic pressure some can often relieve stress and help an otherwise stressed fish.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-05-2005, 03:32 PM   #74
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Wow good info Steve! So we should rely mostly on the ammonia badge? Will the copper mess with the nitrite test as well?

Hey Steve when you get time..... http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic....937&highlight=
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Old 06-05-2005, 07:50 PM   #75
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Steve-s,

As always, thanks for all the great info!

I'm unclear on the dosage guidelines. From their site (and on the back of the bottle):

Quote:
Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.
I did 2 mL on Friday and 2mL more today for a total of 4mL. In my mind, that's (approximated) 1mL per 10.5 gallons, or 2mL in 20 gallons (which is a tad higher concentration, of course, when you ignore that extra gallon). Between the first and second dose, I swapped 5 gallons of water which I dosed with 0.5 mL (1mL per 10.5 divided by two is close to 0.5ml) before adding the new water. In theory, wasn't the tank then at the same concentration as before the water change and therefore ready for the second dose of 2mL?

I'm not sure I get the x2 you mentioned.

Maybe I'm being obtuse.

I'm going to go check it again in a sec to see if registers on the test kit.

I had forgotten about the badges being accurate and the test kits not when it comes to ammonia and false positives. In fact, I read that and ordered the badges due to that very recommendation and then went and forgot last night when I did a test.

So - should I do my changes WHEN the badge shifts to the first warning color (or goes even slightly off the normal yellow), or just do them regardless?

If I should do them regardless, would 5 gallons per day be a sane amount assuming the badge is NOT changing color?

I'll keep an eye on their behavior. It's feeding time right now, actually.

Thanks!
- Aaron
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Old 06-05-2005, 08:27 PM   #76
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In addition to the above description, I've just come back from the nightly feeding.

Water temp is fine, salinity is about 1.023, ammonia appears to be nil (the badge remains unchanged) and nitrites are still zero.

The fish are very inactive - just hovering around the same area of the far end of the tank near each other. I don't think either fish ate anything tonight.

I also noticed the water in their tank is less crystal than the other QT next to it that is still fishless. The water in both tanks came from the main and the water swapout I did of five gallons last night was using remaining main tank water from setting up the QT on Friday. So that means the water and the salt are same.

So... any ideas what's up? Am I killing my fish instead of curing them?

All of this has me hesitant to move the other fish from the main into the second QT until I know the first QT is moving along properly.

I'm doing the copper test right now and I don't think it's registering at all. I'll know in a few more minutes. The test water for the baseline that came with the kit started going blue immediately. My water does not. So maybe I have underdosed the Cupramine, but I'm not sure yet until I hear a response on the prior question so I can understand the dosing methods properly.

This has me mystified.

I did, however, crack the window in that room a bit and dropped a 105 GPH Mini-404 pump I had down into the middle of the tank to make even more surface movement. The bio-wheel filter in there is 200 GPH (rated for a 50 and this is a 20 tank) and it keeps the surface rippled pretty much all the time anyway.

Thoughts?
- Aaron

P.S. The poly filter screen in here is the one that came with the filter and is in the form of a blue poly and carbon granual sandwich on a plastic frame. I cut open the side of the poly part to reveal the carbon granuals and dump them all out before putting it in the tank the first day. If there are any carbon granuals in there, it's got to be just a couple at MOST. Is that going to give me any issues?
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Old 06-05-2005, 08:45 PM   #77
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Quick update - my cupramine is showing up now (I hadn't let the test sit for ten minutes since I was writing that last note and not watching it). It's not quite as blue as the baseline test water that comes in the test, so I'd say I'm closer to 0.3 than 0.5.

I'll dose and test the water for the next change before adding it and try to stay around 0.5 if at all possible.

- Aaron
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Old 06-06-2005, 08:07 PM   #78
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Well, this QT process is starting to worry me.

Ammonia appears to be 0 or immeasurably low
Nitrites 0
Temp - 76
SG - 1.022 - 1.023
pH - 8.0 - 8.1
Cupramine - ~ 0.4

For the second day in a row I see no signs of eating. The fish just hover about, almost ALWAYS in the back corner of the tank nearest the heater. The breathing of the angel looks like it might be a little faster or labored - I can't tell.

The first couple of days they were eating pretty decently and moving around a good bit more. Not anymore.

The water is not crystal clear, but I can't figure out quite why. I'm not letting anything visible sit for long without it being siphoning out - poop, food, whatever.

I did two water changes today... 5 gal this morning and 5 more gallons just now.

I'm starting to think this is going downhill pretty fast and I'm not sure what to do. I haven't put the other fish into the other QT yet since this one appears to be failing and I don't really want to kill the whole gang. I'm also not making enough RO water yet to keep up with large water changes on two tanks - that should change tomorrow, I hope, with a booster pump.

Any thoughts? I'm getting beyond worried at this point. I don't want to put these two back in the main tank... but everybody needs to come out ultimately to fallow the tank and I don't want to kill these two trying to figure out what's wrong.

The HOB filter keeps the water moving on the surface all the time. I tossed in a small 106 GPH powerhead pump the other day and let it sit on the bottom. It just jets straight up and creates even more ripples on the surface... so I'd think oxygen exchange was decent.

Any thoughts?

- Aaron
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Old 06-06-2005, 11:25 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amahler
I'm unclear on the dosage guidelines. From their site (and on the back of the bottle):

Quote:
Use 1 mL (top mark of enclosed dispenser) per 40 L (10.5 gallons*) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat for a total dose of 0.5 mg/L (in freshwater, use half dose). Leave at this concentration for 14 days.
I did 2 mL on Friday and 2mL more today for a total of 4mL. In my mind, that's (approximated) 1mL per 10.5 gallons, or 2mL in 20 gallons (which is a tad higher concentration, of course, when you ignore that extra gallon). Between the first and second dose, I swapped 5 gallons of water which I dosed with 0.5 mL (1mL per 10.5 divided by two is close to 0.5ml) before adding the new water. In theory, wasn't the tank then at the same concentration as before the water change and therefore ready for the second dose of 2mL?

I'm not sure I get the x2 you mentioned.
The initial dose is what's confusing you. 1 ml/10.5 gal x2 doses (1 dose day one and another 48 hrs later), correct?

So to achieve a full dose it's 2 ml/10.5 gal so to achieve a 5 gal full dosage for water change purposes would be (2ml/10.5gal)x(5)= 0.95 ml

As far as the sluggishness, I did suggest dropping the salinity some to 1.020-21 (26.6-27.9 ppt) will improve their disposition some and help with the loss of appetite. Copper no matter the type or brand does supress their appetite some and the reduced osmotic pressure will aide in this. You can also try a drop of garlic in their food (soaked beforehand) it will often spark some interest.

How is the midday pH now after the changes? You did not post a value?

Cheers
Steve
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Old 06-06-2005, 11:31 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by revhtree
So we should rely mostly on the ammonia badge? Will the copper mess with the nitrite test as well?
The ammonia badge will be the best source of detection when using Cupramine, yes. You could also use their mutitest ammonia kit it you prefer the "hands on" re-assurance. It should not interfere with nitrite or nitrate test kits. It's only the amines in the Cupramine that fool test kits into reading it as free (ionized) ammonia.

Cheers
Steve
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