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Old 04-04-2006, 10:46 PM   #21
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How about this for my HOB? I like Marineland products, so I want to try and stick with them as much as possible!

http://bigalsonline.com/catalog/prod...d1=2885;pcid2=
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT79
Since you have a good amount of LR the Bio-wheel will just cause nitrate problems.
I have to respectfully disagree with that general assumption. IME any filter including canisters, HOB units, & even sumps can become nitrate factories with improper cleanings.

Bio-Wheels do just what they are designed to do and that is to create bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle just as any wet/dry filter would. Bacteria is created whether you use fresh, brackish, or saltwater and the amount of bacteria is in direct proportion to the bio-load in the tank.

Most of the Bio-Wheels receive the water after it’s gone through a basic filter/GAC filtration unit so essentially it never becomes clogged. The only exception to this is if you hook the Bio-Wheel up directly to a power head in which you should have a pre-filter/sponge put on the ph to avoid clogging.

It is extremely efficient at taking the toxic nh3/no2 and converting it to the less toxic no3 due to the large surface area and it constantly being exposed to oxygen. It can only create no3 from the nh3/no2 present in the tank and can not produce no3 on it’s own.

Any filtration unit can become clogged with improper maintenance and lead to excessive no3 due to the non-removal of excess waste which leads to excessive nh3 levels.

After using the Bio-Wheel for over 10 years in FW, Brackish, & SW I’ve never experienced no3 above 10 ppm and routinely keep it at 0 ppm by diligently cleaning the unit (About every week or every other week) and by not overstocking/overfeeding my tanks. It’s easy to maintain/setup and is a great addition or alternative to SW tank owners who don’t want to use or fully depend on lr for bio-filtration.

Personally I use the Magnum 350 Pro in addition to 90 lbs of lr in my 55 along with a 20 gal sump/10 gal refugium. I like the 350 pro because it sits below the tank and is easy to maintain

I also love being able to just transfer one of the two wheels to my 20 gal qt tank’s Magnum 250 for “instant” bio-filtration.

Jermz79, IMO I also trust Marineland products and think the Marineland Penguin 200B Power Filter would be a great addition as long as you are diligent on keeping it clean and waste free.

With it only producing 200 gph If you don’t already use a ph I’d get one or two to aerate the tank and keep it flowing nicely.
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:14 AM   #23
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Sweet post Tec.

I think I'm gonna go with the Penguin 200B and maybe one of them HOB refugium's you posted.


Now just to figure out ... Topless or Egg crate?!!!!!!! OH MAN, always something huh?
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:25 AM   #24
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Thanks, I realize we all have different ways of achieving 0 no3 and most avoid canister/HOB filters like the plague but as I stated I still think it’s manageable.

I have to truly wonder what people use for FO setups. Substrate and ph usage alone IME does not provide enough beneficial bacteria to house the allotted fish so they have to use something whether it be wet/dry, fuge, canister, or HOB.

Do you have any carpet surfers? If not I’d just go topless or at least half topless to avoid splashing your new lights. Egg crate or an aquarium cover can be used which is designed for excessive heat from lights if you do have jumpers.
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermz79
Can you explain to me how these HOB refugiums work? I looked at them and they look pretty cool, but I don't see any pumps or anything?

Thanks
Sure, I have an under tank fuge but I have been really impressed with the HOB refugium I linked. That particular ebayer has pretty good reviews and excellent pricing when you compare more costly CPR units. Also since a lot of smaller ie: <=30 gal tanks don’t often have the room for an under tank sump/fuge it’s a great alternative then not having it at all.

The HOB fuge he sells does require to be put together but is quite easy. It doesn’t come with a ph, lighting, lr, sand, or Chaetomorpha Algae but all can be bought elsewhere fairly cheaply.

Any ph will work and I’d get one that you can hook up a vinyl tube to the end to place in one end on the fuge. From there gravity will just force it out the other end after going through your fuge. I’d aim for around 100-200 gph for ph. You don’t want the current too strong in which it would displace the algae or sand in the fuge.

Personally I wouldn’t use sand because you wouldn’t be able to create the 4” sand bed easily to aid in no3 reduction. The use or lr rubble and chaeto is sufficient for no3 reduction and a place to cultivate pods. Make sure you trim and remove the chaeto as it grows to export nutrients. Growing it alone will not achieve that goal.

For pod cultivation if you don’t already have a substantial amount already you can purchase them from the following sites:

http://www.reefnutrition.com/
http://www.ipsf.com/#anchor45957
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html
www.seahorse.com


The design of the refugium also allows them to easily escape into the main tank as well.
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:48 AM   #26
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Thanks a bunch. HE doesn't really explain setup on his page so I was kind of confused!
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecwzrd
Bio-Wheels do just what they are designed to do and that is to create bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle just as any wet/dry filter would.
Exactly, but they are much more efficient at doing it than natural biological filtration ie. LR/LS. This creates and excessive amount of end product-nitrate. Since these types of filters promote the growth of primarily aerobic bacteria, that turns the Bio-wheel/wet-dry filter into a "nitrate factory". Anaerobic bacteria are needed to consume nitrate. This is not my opinion or hypothesis, it is a well defined occurence in reef aquariums. Generally reefs have more natural Bio-filtration, LR/LS, than FO/FOWLR and can maintain themselves better with no external additions.
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:57 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecwzrd
It can only create no3 from the nh3/no2 present in the tank and can not produce no3 on it’s own.
Please explain how bio-wheels produce no3 more then lr/ls from the same nh3 source? With that logic an empty tank with a bio-wheel on it would see an increase in no3 from nothing. I’ve used them for over 10 years and still keep my no3 <5 ppm. Have you used them?

If you don’t keep the filters inside clean that will lead to waste build up which in turn increases nh3 which gets converted to no3 but I still fail to comprehend how bacteria creates more no3 from nothing no mater were it’s stored ie: lr/ls or a bio-wheel.

Sump filter pads if improperly cleaned leads to the same waste build up as well. Should reefers not use sumps? Makes about as much sense to me.
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Old 04-08-2006, 12:11 AM   #29
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Quote:
Please explain how bio-wheels produce no3 more then lr/ls from the same nh3 source?
As natural forms of bio-filtration break down ammonia and nitrite they also break down the nitrate(to at least some extent). They are able to do this because anaerobic bacteria live deep inside the pores of the rock and deep in the sand-hence the use of DSB's to lower nitrates.
Quote:
Should reefers not use sumps? Makes about as much sense to me.
Well then you need to do some more research lol.
Not cleaning sponges, pads, etc. causes them to become loaded w/ aerobic, nitrogen producing bacteria(along with detritus). That makes them very efficient at converting ammo-nitrite-nitrate and causes the same problems the bio-wheel does on tanks w/ the proper amount of LR. The same thing is happening in both cases.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT79
The same thing is happening in both cases.
It’s the waste build up that is the problem whether you use wet/dry, canister, or a hob. That’s the point I am trying to address that it’s the lack of cleaning, overstocking, and/or over feeding that causes the nh3 to rise which in turn is eventually going to be processed into no3.

I completely agree that lr/ls is much more beneficial in terms of naturally converting nh3 to no3 and also understand all about the anaerobic bacteria which is created in oxygen deprived areas deep within the rock and in the lower sections of sand which convert the no3 to a harmless nitrogen gas that escapes via the water surface.

My contention is that bio-wheels if kept clean regularly only produce n3o from the nh3/no2 it receives which is the same as lr/ls does. Granted it doesn’t have the added benefit of being able to reduce no3 after it converts but it still isn’t a “nitrate factory” on it’s own since it’s only doing its job which the lr/ls would do just as well.

I’m a strong advocate for having 1.5+ lbs of lr and a 3+” sand bed and use them myself along with my lighted fuge for no3 reduction. For those that do not have lr or who do not have enough to provide them with full bio-filtration I also think the bio-wheel is a good product that if properly maintained can still keep no3 in check.
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