Mandarin setup

[Summer4infinity]

So I know that this isn't the prettiest setup, but I had a bunch of live rock left over from the structure in my main tank, and since the live rock was SO expensive, I didn't want to waste it. I decided to set up an extra 38 gallon I had laying around and put the spare rock in there. It's been set up for 4 months with no fish, just a few corals, a bunch of macro, and pods galore. I have always wanted to keep a mandarin, but there is no way I can keep one in my main tank (65 gallon with sump/fuge, but also an ocillarus that is a pod hunting machine). I was trying to figure out how to add a fuge on this tank, but started thinking 'why can't I just divide the tank with mesh?... there will still be plenty of room for the mandarin and lots of safe area for pods. The pods can come through the mesh, but the mandarin can't come over to the pods area.' Other than the ugly divider, does anyone think that this is a viable plan? The mandarin will be the only fish in this tank btw. Will a 10-15 gallon area full of rock/macro be enough to sustain a mandarin if he can't get to that area? As you can see, there are lots of rocks and macro in the side the mandarin would be in as well.

 

[Holygral]

you simply can not keep a mandarin in that small set up, he will be out of pods in 1 or 2 days, they can not multiply as fast as he will eat them

 

[navaljonf]

you simply can not keep a mandarin in that small set up, he will be out of pods in 1 or 2 days, they can not multiply as fast as he will eat them

+1


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[PB_Smith]

So did you guys actually READ the OP's post???????????????????

He is dividing the tank so that the pods can have a safe area to reproduce and the mandarin would be the only thing in there. If it is not able to eat all the pods and they are able to easily filter into the display tank, what's the issue?
He will most likely have to introduce other foods and try and wean the mandarin off pods exclusively, but there is nothing wrong with his idea or set-up.

Personally I would also try a pair of dwarf seahorses in there.

 

[BigRedsReefs10]

One thing I'd recommend is putting a few media bags full of LR rubble in the pods section so you can pull one out and shake it in the display (the pods will go swimming out) once a day or so, should give you a decent idea on the size of your pod population.

Totally agree with pb on trying to wean the mandi onto frozen though. A pipe fish or 2 would also make a nice addition

 

[Holygral]

So did you guys actually READ the OP's post???????????????????

He is dividing the tank so that the pods can have a safe area to reproduce and the mandarin would be the only thing in there. If it is not able to eat all the pods and they are able to easily filter into the display tank, what's the issue?
He will most likely have to introduce other foods and try and wean the mandarin off pods exclusively, but there is nothing wrong with his idea or set-up.

Personally I would also try a pair of dwarf seahorses in there.

The the pods can not multiply quick enough to sustain the Mandarin, and you can't wean a mandarin off of pods while there is pods in his environment. And yes I read his post.

 

[PB_Smith]

The the pods can not multiply quick enough to sustain the Mandarin, and you can't wean a mandarin off of pods while there is pods in his environment. And yes I read his post.

if the pods are segregated from the mandarin they will reach a sustainable population.
uhmm, isn't that the idea behind those extortionately priced HOB or in-tank refugiums? Growing pods is ALWAYS one of the uses recommended for them in all the advertising/descriptions.

You certainly can add other foods to the mix and gradually get them to take frozen.
How in the world do you think it is done otherwise?
Countless people have had great success doing this, including folks on this site. I think Carey said she had one for many, many years.

Throwing down such absolutes concerning what can or can not be done or how any animal is going to act isn't the wisest thing.
I can understand people often reply with the assumption that the person asking the question just starting keeping fish last Wednesday, but the OP certainly knows what he is doing and the obstacles involved with keeping species such as mandarins (otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the trouble he already has, now would he ), he was just asking for OPINIONS about the idea.
If you research the topic you will find that the OP is doing it in one of the best fashions possible if a person is going to try to keep mandarins, a species specific tank with segregated area for pods so they DO NOT get wiped out.

Sorry for coming off so harsh to you and sorry to the mods, but seriously, why are telling him it CAN"T be done when you have no way of knowing that it won't work and numerous people have had good success with them.

Advice is considering the particular situation and offering your ideas concerning it, not just handing off final proclamations.

 

[JonathanG]

Both my mandarins eat frozen and pellets in addition to eating pods which are always plentiful in my 150 gallon reef. Not so "impossible" at all.


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[Gregcoyote]

Both my mandarins eat frozen and pellets in addition to eating pods which are always plentiful in my 150 gallon reef. Not so "impossible" at all.


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Your one of the very fortunate ones. My son also got a easy to feed mandarin. It can happen. And a dedicated hobbiest can raise or buy pods to keep even non-weaned ones fat. I know several folks that even get them to spawn. But they will tell you it's by a dedicated feeding program or a very established pod generating tank that's going for a long period of time that keeps them healthy. Having no competing species in with them is a good move as they eat like my grandma did. Very slowly.

Carey's mandarin starved FYI. She no longer recommends keeping them last I heard. And she really worked at it.

And a statement that a certain type hob or refugium will never get eaten out of pods by a mandarin is a bit general. They can eat thousands after thousands and wipe out a pod population quickly. Yes, I have seen older systems that can keep up with mandarins, but not that many. Just don't tell the OP it's a piece of cake, because it isn't IMO. But if kept to over the long haul, every day, they can flourish.


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[Mebbid]

I personally wouldn't try one without having a dedicated pod culture, especially in a tank that small. The size of the tank directly limits the pod population, through lack of food for copepods to feast on and lack of real estate.

I would get a large copepod culture up and running for multiple months that you could easily pull from on a regular basis before trying one. That way it won't matter if the tank can sustain enough pods for him and it won't be a lost cause if he decides that he hates frozen foods.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I personally wouldn't try one without having a dedicated pod culture, especially in a tank that small. The size of the tank directly limits the pod population, through lack of food for copepods to feast on and lack of real estate.



I would get a large copepod culture up and running for multiple months that you could easily pull from on a regular basis before trying one. That way it won't matter if the tank can sustain enough pods for him and it won't be a lost cause if he decides that he hates frozen foods.

+1


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[PB_Smith]

Carey's mandarin starved FYI. She no longer recommends keeping them last I heard. And she really worked at it.

Maybe we are talking about different Carey's;

Best way to keep a mandarin to have them eat frozen food or pellets. I purchased an ORA mandarin, they are supposed to eat pellets. Mine did not, but after a month of intense feeding several times a day by target feeding my mandarin took to some frozen. It took a few more years but mine now eats pellets. ...
Even now, years later i still overfeed, cause it is possible for a mandarin to go back to pods only at any time.

and other posts would indicate that she had it for at least a couple-three years and that it definitely wasn't starving.

And a statement that a certain type hob or refugium will never get eaten out of pods by a mandarin is a bit general. They can eat thousands after thousands and wipe out a pod population quickly.

wrong, if the main pod population is segregated from the fish, as in a refugium or divided tank as the OP is thinking, then please explain to me HOW the fish is going to eat ALL the pods????

is the fish going to use a ladder to climb over it?

 

[Mebbid]

Maybe we are talking about different Carey's;




and other posts would indicate that she had it for at least a couple-three years and that it definitely wasn't starving.



wrong, if the main pod population is segregated from the fish, as in a refugium or divided tank as the OP is thinking, then please explain to me HOW the fish is going to eat ALL the pods????

is the fish going to use a ladder to climb over it?

Its not that the fish will eat ALL the pods, but demolish the population to a point where there aren't enough to keep it fed.

 

[Sillyfishies]

We really have no way of knowing with out trying it. I would start a culture as a back-up. So if it doesn't work out, you can still keep it alive and fat.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Maybe we are talking about different Carey's;




and other posts would indicate that she had it for at least a couple-three years and that it definitely wasn't starving.



wrong, if the main pod population is segregated from the fish, as in a refugium or divided tank as the OP is thinking, then please explain to me HOW the fish is going to eat ALL the pods????

is the fish going to use a ladder to climb over it?

Sorry PB, but your info is wrong I believe. Carey also stated in the same post;

"This is undoubtably the hardest fish I have to keep. Not sure i would do it over again if given the chance."

During that time if you read the post she stated she practically ruined her water quality by over feeding in attempts to keep the mandarin alive.

Carey worked hard to keep her mandarin, it stopped eating prepared foods as I remember the story and reverted to pods again when she lost it. Or it stopped eating, I don't remember. Contact her, she has posted several times about her mandarin efforts. This happens to the a great number of dragonets sold. Carey is as as dedicated as it comes and as I remember she was sad when he died.

As to eating all the pods, then starving, you can can call up many posts that report this problem as others on this thread have indicated. You have to get lucky and not get a finicky one. Otherwise a mandarin will eat whatever pods the system can supply and are not eaten by faster fish. And if that's not enough and the refugium can't keep up, it will starve. They have a short gut and must eat constantly.

Your sarcasm was noted, maybe not meant.

Just as I said, it can be done, just please don't tell the OP it's a piece of cake because it isn't. This can be a very needy fish. I sold them for years and my bet is one in five live over a year.

I messaged Carey and asked her to join the thread.


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[Holygral]

if the pods are segregated from the mandarin they will reach a sustainable population.
uhmm, isn't that the idea behind those extortionately priced HOB or in-tank refugiums? Growing pods is ALWAYS one of the uses recommended for them in all the advertising/descriptions.

You certainly can add other foods to the mix and gradually get them to take frozen.
How in the world do you think it is done otherwise?
Countless people have had great success doing this, including folks on this site. I think Carey said she had one for many, many years.

Throwing down such absolutes concerning what can or can not be done or how any animal is going to act isn't the wisest thing.
I can understand people often reply with the assumption that the person asking the question just starting keeping fish last Wednesday, but the OP certainly knows what he is doing and the obstacles involved with keeping species such as mandarins (otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the trouble he already has, now would he ), he was just asking for OPINIONS about the idea.
If you research the topic you will find that the OP is doing it in one of the best fashions possible if a person is going to try to keep mandarins, a species specific tank with segregated area for pods so they DO NOT get wiped out.

Sorry for coming off so harsh to you and sorry to the mods, but seriously, why are telling him it CAN"T be done when you have no way of knowing that it won't work and numerous people have had good success with them.

Advice is considering the particular situation and offering your ideas concerning it, not just handing off final proclamations.

And I offered my opinion and that was and still is it can't be done. My 125 g was up and running for 5 years and had a 30g fuge, the tank has 100 pounds of lr and no other pod eaters. So after 5 years I got my first mandarin, but after 5-6 weeks I started to notice that my pod population was a tenth of what it was before. So every 3-4 weeks I bought 2000 pods for months, but it still wasn't enough to keep him fed, and he eventually died. And that is the only fish that I ever lost. And I tried to wean him to other foods but as long as their is pods they will starve to death hunting for them. So with my experiences, I will stick to my opinion that he can't be done in a small tank.

 

[PB_Smith]

Just as I said, it can be done, just please don't tell the OP it's a piece of cake because it isn't. This can be a very needy fish. I sold them for years and my bet is one in five live over a year.

Wow, I hope all of you understand that nowhere did I say "it is a piece of cake" I simply pointed out that they can be kept and that the OP was approaching it with one of the better set-ups for this type of fish. I did say that he would have to wean the fish onto frozen foods, didn't I?

The biggest complaint I have with this forum and some of the more prolific and then supposedly more experienced members are all the "you can't do that" type of answers when more often than not a person can do whatever it is, as well as the arrogance that often accompanies such replies, this topic being a perfect example.

Just because it may be a challenge the OP should just forget about it?
Guess I should have discouraged all those people coming into my store trying to keep corals alive 30-40 years ago because it's too challenging and mine died when I tried it, so there is no way anyone else could do it.
Hmm, I wonder where the reef keeping hobby would be now?
So what are you folks saying concerning the OP's fishkeeping abilities?
Kinda insulting, don't ya think?
(Trying to illustrate a point here, hope it isn't lost on all of you)

Sure mandarins are tricky, but I don't recall seeing any posts blasting Carey for trying or any other long time members who have also tried to keep mandarins. In all the many post by Carey concerning her mandi, I did not once see anyone tell her not to do it because they will just die, or chastising her when it did die, all were very supportive of her efforts, hmmmm.


honestly, in a nutshell all I said was if he was going to do it, he is off on the right foot by doing a species specific tank and segregating the pod population, I never made any promise or guarantee of success.
So tell me....am I wrong?

I don't think so.

 

[Gregcoyote]

You are wrong in saying anyone blasted anyone. We have opinions too. I actually sold my LFS because of my disgust in killing so many beautiful animals because my customers read somewhere you can keep a tang in a 10 gallon. And that article they read had to be right...

These are special needs fish.

At what point do you say; I am sick of throwing away beautiful fish because I didn't listen to anyone? I reached that point years ago and now my rule is if I can't raise it to it's full life span, I'm not collecting it.

I guess experimentation did get us to where we are today. A hobby that is under incredible scrutiny because environmentalists don't see any advantage in letting us wild collect organisms, some scarce, to only kill in our aquariums. I don't see it that way, but I am in the hobby.


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[PB_Smith]

You are wrong in saying anyone blasted anyone. We have opinions too. I actually sold my LFS because of my disgust in killing so many beautiful animals because my customers read somewhere you can keep a tang in a 10 gallon. And that article they read had to be right...

These are special needs fish.

At what point do you say; I am sick of throwing away beautiful fish because I didn't listen to anyone? I reached that point years ago and now my rule is if I can't raise it to it's full life span, I'm not collecting it.

I guess experimentation did get us to where we are today. A hobby that is under incredible scrutiny because environmentalists don't see any advantage in letting us wild collect organisms, some scarce, to only kill in our aquariums. I don't see it that way, but I am in the hobby.


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Yup, we do all have opinions.
If someone states that a mandarin can not be kept in a ten gallon tank they are stating opinion, not fact.
I always take issue whenever opinion is offered as solid fact.
Fact of the matter is that a mandarin can be kept in a tank that size.
Is it going to be easy? No
Is there a high probability of failure? Yes
Does the OP at least understand these things? Yes, it appears so based on the information they have provided.

There are many different methodologies that work in this hobby, so more often than not there is no clear YES or NO answer, there are yes and no answers with caveats and conditions, just as there are when dealing with any natural phenomena.


I am 100% with you about some animals should not be sold, with mandarin and similar types on the cusp of being able to be kept.
Actually almost got into an argument with the owner of lfs two days ago because I told him he had too many big fish and that he needed to donate the two lanceolatus groupers he had in tanks that were no more than 24" and the fish were easily 18"-20", they could not even turn around, I'm considering reporting him.

and again, nowhere did I say it was easy as cake, only that IF he was going to try, he is at least approaching it from the correct perspective and is mindful of the special needs of the fish, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Gregcoyote]

I would tend to agree. I am just cautious as I have heard this too many times. Bucking the odds is no problem except for the fish.


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