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Old 03-26-2006, 04:46 PM   #11
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[quote="This is the second time I've read a post from you declining to take advice from people with more experience because you don't think they are correct, or because you don't feel like it. That is usually a precursor of a tank disaster.[/quote]

Not that im declining advices... This isn't the only forum I look at for advices. I read books that the LFS let me borrow, articles on the webs and other forums about fishkeeping that i've found (nanoreef.com for example). I've got so many different advices on mandarin (i researched ALOT on this fish cuz i love it). In one book (the format of this book is the amatuer aquarists ask questions, then the professional aquarists answer) i've read, a guy asked if he could keep a green mandarin in a 10G. The answer was "You have my OK" along with other specific instructions for the fish. In a saltwater fish database on the web, the minimum requirement for mandarins was established 30G. On nanoreef.com forum, one guy has a mandarin in a 15G.

The majority of advices on madarin I've got from this forum is "your tank won't support mandarin". So for me to get one seems like im declining's this forum's advices. But from other sources, i've got advices such as "you can keep one if u r dedicated enuf."

Please do not think i only ask for advices so that i could "not listen to them". Advices are different from source to source. So, I'm sorry if i've angered anyone by going against their advices.

Anyway, my mandarin seems to be doing fine. It's still pretty shy. My camera is messing up for some reason so i guess i'll post more pictures later.

Btw. I'll look into adding more nutritions into my live brine shrimps so my mandarin can grow healthier. I'll try my best to lure it into eating prepared foods as they have more nutritions than adult brine shrimps

I do have a 20G tank that im using to keep my brine shrimps in. It only have ls. No fish, no lf no equipments. Im thinking of making it into a sump/fuge. There are also a good population of pods in there too. They are really small so how could i take these pods out to the 30G and feed my mandarin?

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Old 03-26-2006, 07:46 PM   #12
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I have had a target Mandarin in a 29 gallon tank for three months that has shown quite a bit of growth. Grant it this tank served as a fuge for quite some time prior to the mandarins introduction, has 25 pounds of seasoned LR, macros, was packed with pods prior to the mandarins arrival and is plumbed out to the rest of my system which is another 75 gallon tank with around 80 pounds of LR. I supplement feeding with live brine each morning and the pod pop in the tank remains steady even after the mandarins introduction

I also know of a target Mandarin in a stand alone 29 gal set up that has also grown quite large and feeds on all types of frozen fair. Unfortunately you have chosen a psychedelic which is known to be a tad harder to get on to frozen foods.

I tend to disagree with the conventional response that mandarins will die of starvation in any thing less than 100 gallon systems over a year old but this type set up certainly would be ideal.

IMO a more important factor is that the mandarin have absolutely no compatition for food sources. They simply will not compete with other more agile fish in a community set up. I would recommend a species specific setup. This is probably why some fail even with large mature set ups.

My advice is to make sure there is plenty of rock in the tank and a deep sand bed. The mandarin is the only fish. Add a couple of fist size balls of cheato to the tank (pod heaven). Order a large supply of pods over the net and introduce to the tank and continue to supplement with live brine and attempts to get the fish to take prepared foods. Make sure there is a clean up crew to take care of ignored foods when making attempts to wean him onto them. Pods will also feed on ignored food items. If at night you cant take a flash light and easily spot several adult pods scurrying about you may be in for a problem. Especially with the psychedelics

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Old 03-26-2006, 08:22 PM   #13
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I had the same problem that I posted last week:


I got lucky and bought a mandarian dragonet (psycedelic fish, goby, or whatever...) who actually eats a fair amount of frozen mysis shrimp. I turn the powerheads off and feed a little on the heavy side, as I also have some fast swimmers that will leave nothing for him to eat if I don't. So far, so good...but I'm not going to pat myself on the back until I see him alive and healthy still in the summer. It is a remarkable fish though, I certainly can't blame you for wanting to try it out.

I still don't know much about copeopod starter kits, buying them online, or anything like that. I've heard a lot of different opinions about boosting your pod population but nothing concrete yet. I am assuming that if I can keep a really good level of pods about then that's much more beneficial to my tank as everything I have or will have (ie corals) will eat them. If anyone can provide a really good kick in the right direction for doing so, guys like myself and RealFF would appreciate it. The only thing I know for sure is that they come with live rock, and at night I don't see them about anymore.
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Old 03-26-2006, 09:47 PM   #14
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Try to get your hands on a few balls of cheato to put in the tank. The cheato will give the adult pods a place to avoid predation and breed. Cheato will not go sexual or attach to your rock work so no worries there as far as having it in your DT.

Some things in your tank will snack on it but it should grow faster than it can be eaten in almost all cases. If you cant find any locally look here, but they are a tad pricey IMO.


Like I said I don't think a community tank is a good setting for any mandarin. Just to much compatition for the pods. Especially fish known to be pod predators like the six line wrasse for example.

My mandarin pretty much ignores the adult pods preferring to dine on there young. Don't use your mag float on the front of your tank for a week or so and allow some algae to build up. Get a strong magnifying glass and inspect the front pane of your tank with it after this period of time. Juvenal pods are tiny, about the size of the period at the end of this sentence. You should be able to make them out though and hopefully you will see a lot. Pods are like cock roaches, for every one you can count there is probably a hundred more in your tank.

I rarely see adult pods in my DT but juvies are easy to make out on my glass so there is no doubt some in there.
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:27 PM   #15
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WOW, I have so many problems with this post on so many levels.

Why are you even asking for advice that you have no intention of following. I say you are just grasping for someone to agree with your methods to justify doing what you know is wrong.

Please re-read your own posts that several members including myself have taken valuable time to respond to in order to give you some sound advice based on our experiences and you have ignored.




Brief synopsis:

Less than two weeks ago you posted that you just completed a fishless cycle, and now you call your tank mature.

You were also advised to return a YT and scotter dragonette because a 30g is not nearly big enough. You ignored this advice.

Several days later you posted a question about your ich problems. Are any of these fish still alive? Ich takes 6+ weeks to get rid of as your were advised.

Then you posted about your long term desire to obtain a mandarin and after being given more sound advice as to why you should not you claimed that you would wait until you could get an appropriate size tank.

Now you post that you went ahead an added a mandarin anyway because some LFS told you what you wanted to hear and gave you very poor advice.

I realize you are new to this and you sound young based on the fact that you need you father's permission to return a fish. I do not mean to be to harsh here, but am a bit frustrated with your methods. It seems like you are finding out what the best conditions should be and then misrepresenting your setup to match these conditions. 8O

I cannot believe any half way responsible LFS employee would recommend a a mandarin to you if you properly represented your set-up. If they did find a new LFS.

Bottom line you can do what ever you want. There you have your justification for your methods. Just be prepared for the consequences. I do feel sorry for the fish that will be forced to pay with their lives just so you can learn from personal experience what others have already told you.

Please slow down and do a lot of reading before you go any further (start with your previous posts). With your setup you can support several species of of SW fish that would be appropriate in a nano system. You need to recognize your limitations though.

Take your time and learn good fish husbandry while you save up for that large set-up that will allow you to do some of the things you really want to do.

Oh, take the poor mandarin back. If you do not at least save us the pain of reading your post asking why it died. Sorry the truth hurts.

I do wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors for the fish sake.

Tank: 90 Gal SW Reef in the making

See my info for setup and inhabitant details:
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Old 03-27-2006, 12:20 AM   #16
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Wha... i can see what u said now... i do post questions sometimes to justify what i am doing is right. Sorry im so stupid Im sorry

I didn't say my tank was mature tho I probly said it accidently somewhere but i don't recall calling my 30G a mature tank. It's only 3 weeks of age, tho the cycle only took less than a week. (i think it was b/c of the old LR i had n the concentrated bacterias.) Don't worry i've been testing the parameters and they are stable at:

8.2 PH
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
5 Nitrate
.5 Phosphate
500 Calcium

I already returned the YT before i moved the fishes to the 30G :/ The scooter blenny, i told u that he's taking flakes so i didn't return him.

I seriously did not want to buy a mandarin that day (my dad and sister wanted to by one ealier that day and i explained to them that we can't feed it), but seeing them being so healthy and eating so much made me want to buy one right away Like i said i've read alot and sources said that they only need at least 30G tank as long as they are well fed so i just went for it . Sry that i broke my promise of upgrading first before buying one, afilter.

This LFS is a good one, not like the last one i went to. I've tried to buy many other things but they didnt let me (green brittle stars, chocolate chip stars, camel back shrimps, delicate corals and non reef safe fishes) I trust the people here most of the time so... i don't know y but i recommended a mandarin to me when i asked for 1.

About Ich, it's gone on my clownfishes. The old 20G (i used it at a brine shrimp tank now hehe) is still infected i think but the 30G is disease free.

The mandarin...can i keep it for awhile? I will return it as soon as any sign of distress. I wouldn't want to keep an unhappy fish anyway. I'll try my best to take good care of it. Mayb i can get it to eat flakes like my scooter blenny is doing hehe. Well not flakes but other nutritious prepared foods. Sounds good?

Thank you afilter, u've been helping me all this time even tho im being so stupid to make right choices. Most ppls would have ignore my dumb questions by now.
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:03 AM   #17
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Well, that's not really sound reasoning...you ask if you can keep a fish a while until you see it showing signs of stress? By the time your mandarin starts showing "signs of distress," he will already be in poor shape, and unless the LFS has pods for him to eat, he may starve to death anyway.

From what I have read, you have a small tank with nowhere near enough live rock to support the necessary food source, and you have no refugium to help create a food source. Basically, what you are doing is playing russian roulette. You are putting all your hopes on 1 number (that he will eat other foods) and tossing the ball out there, and quite honestly, your odds are about that good...IF that good. I'm glad you realize that you are playing the mommy-daddy game...if mommy says no, ask daddy and he might say yes. If you are going to ask multiple people for advice, TAKE the advice...don't decide what you want to do and then ask mommy and daddy and grandpa until someone agrees with what you have already decided...

Aquaria is a hobby that takes patience and humility...you have to recognize your limitations and learn over time. Starting with a fish that even experienced reef keepers have trouble keeping alive is setting yourself up for failure... There's no embarrassment starting out with the "newbie" fish. I am, and I find the "newbie" fish quite beautiful and fun to watch. Take it slow, and you will enjoy this hobby so much more (and avoid chastisement by people who are only trying to help).
38 Gallon (Freshwater): 1 Green Swordtail, 3 Yo-Yo Loaches, 1 Clown Pleco, 1 Blue Gourami, 4 Otocinclus, 7 Cherry Barbs.

46 Gallon (Saltwater): 60 pounds Lalo Live Rock, 60 pounds aragonite sand, 1 Coral Beauty Angelfish, 1 Peppermint Shrimp, 1 Mushroom Coral, 1 Emerald Crab, various snails and hermit crabs.

10 Gallon (Saltwater quarantine):
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Old 03-27-2006, 09:21 AM   #18
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As for the mandarin pkremmer hit it on the head, by the time you notice anything wrong it will most likely be to late. More likely you will not notice anything wrong and 60-90 days from now you will just find it upside down on the bottom of the tank or you will not find it at all. With the size of your setup any death can be catasrophic for the rest of the inhabitants if not found right away.

As for the other issues if you truly had ich it is not cured yet. It takes at least 6 weeks if not longer to rid ich from a setup with no fish in the tank. If you are moving anything between the two tanks then both are potentially infected.

I see now in another post you added a blue linkia. This is the hardest starfish to maintain and has no business being in your tank. Again, whoever is selling you this stuff and giving you this advice is doing you no favors no matter how nice and how credible they may seem. Bottom line they are making a buck off you at the fish expense.

Like stated before you need to slow way down and realize what your limitations are. Take some time and fill out the my info section on this site(acurately describe your setup and what you have for inhabitants) so people know what you have and can give advice.

I fully understand where you are at and appreciate your excitement. I am just trying to save you the pain because I have been there and made some of the exact same mistakes.

This is my second foray into SW keeping. I successfully kept FW for 12+ years to include breeding Discus and SW is totally different.

My first attempt at SW ended after about 18 months of total failure because I did not have a good source like AA and the other resources on the web and in print. I relied on the LFS who basically said sure you can do that. I killed countless fish and invertebre due to overstocking, lack of proper filtration, and very poor irresponsible advice. I was basically applying my years of FW experience to SW. Like many after my tank finally crashed real hard I swore of SW and returned to FW.

Fortunately after about 4 years I returned to SW and more importantly I found sites like this one.

Just trying to save you some of the same pain, frustration and needless expense that I did. This hobby is expensive enough.

If you look hard enough you will find people that tell you what you want to hear, but that does not make it right. I do some things that are the exception to the rule, but not everything you do can be the exception to the rule.

Right now you are headed for a major disappointment if you continue down this path. Please save yourself and the fish and take a step back a re-evaluate what you are doing.

You need to look at your setup as a large nano that is just completing the cycle(maybe) and stock accordingly. Anenome, corals and other complex inverts have no business in your tank for at least six months.

It is very difficult to wait, but without patience i this hobby you are destined to fail.

Now if you look hard enough I am sure you will find some who disagree, but let the majority and what you read in print be your guide.

At this point I would strongly encourage you to return what you have or at least QT in the 20g for 6+ weeks and start over. Nothing worse than starting out with an ich infested tank.

Now it is your choice to follow my advice and others or be condemed to make the same mistakes some of us did and learn from personal experince.

BTW, none of you questions are stupid, but ignoring some of the advice is.

Take care and good luck,

Tank: 90 Gal SW Reef in the making

See my info for setup and inhabitant details:
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:01 AM   #19
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Hey FF I can't offer much more in the way of adive than what's already been offered. I just want to say that the above advice is right on, and you need to heed to it. There will be some lessons you will learn on your on, but there will be much more that you can learn at the expense of others. Many of us already paid the price of watching many fish, coral, and inverts die to the lack of knowledge. You do not lack this. AA is full of people who have made the mistakes and are willing to help you so that you can save yourself from them.

We know your excited, but at the rate your going you wont even have a tank in a month or so. Everything will die and you will give up. Your parents will look at this as a money pit and say enough. if you really want to learn, and want to keep an established tank, then SLOW down and heed to our advice.

Take the Mandarin back and save yourself and the fish heartache. I have a 125g with over 250lbs of LR and I constantly check on my pod population to make sure my Mandarin has enough to eat. BTW he is super fat and healthy. You will be able to have one in the future if you will act upon this advice.

You can do it! Take your time! Welcome to the Addiction!
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:02 PM   #20
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I agree with the rest. I am a noob and really appreciate the feedback and heed the advice. Think of your fish like an animal you can touch, like a dog. They need care and attention (even though you can't touch a lot of them). If I am asking advice, I listen and read. I go with the general consensus.
I don't have much room to talk, but don't ask a lot of people from this and other forums, in order to get the one person that will tell you what you want to hear.
I just leanrned today that my tank is too new to add an Anemone to my tank (thanks revhtree). I bought a beautiful Yellow Stripped Marroon Clownfish and wanted to add that Anemone. I really, REALLY, REALLY wanted to add one, but can't. I have read tons one SW fish and the few things I know. Listen, ask, follow (most of the time), take ur time and be careful.
Sorry to seem preachy, but most of these folks, have more experience and have probably made the same mistakes and are offering "advice" (for free).


Age is relative, you are only as old as you act....of course, this works in reverse....

Questions loved, heeded advice greatly appreciated!

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