Nitrates and phosphates

[Flaxon-Waxon]

I believe I have a fundamental understanding of both of these, but what are the main causes of each and how do they differ, per se? I realize nitrates are the resulting factor in the nitrification cycle = ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate.

With that said, what is the cause for phosphates? Is it excess nutrients, such as uneaten food? If so, why are phosphates spiked as opposed to nitrates? Seems like the food would decompose and let the cycle take over ... I guess I never really read where phosphates come from, especially if it isn't present in the RODI water I use.

Sorry to sound naive here, and I feel ignorant just questioning this now... appreciate the input.

 

[Gregcoyote]

All cells are made up of some basic elements and compounds with a whole bunch of minor compounds thrown in, but nitrates (nitrogen) and phosphates are big players. Basic fertilizer. Generally much more nitrates than phosphates. 16:1 or greater. As cells decompose these compounds are released back into the water. That's my basic understanding, I'm sure a more complicated answer is available. But it's at the core of some systems that can get nitrogen bound. Algae and bacteria cells absorb much more nitrate as they reproduce, than phosphates and once the nitrates are gone, the phosphates are still left behind. That's why some folks also use something to specifically absorb phosphates even when dosing or algae cultivation.


http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

 

[Sniperhank]

Basically, if you put something into your tank it stay there until you take it out. Feed the fish, eat it or not eat it, it turns into nitrates/phosphates.

 

[Paulm7373]

I constantly dose Red Sea No3Po4x to try and remove phosphates but it has always been around 0.5-1.0 no matter what. Apart from not feeding excessively which I'm careful with, what is a good way of reducing phosphates?

 

[mrvincent]

Phosphates comes from food, buy food that doesn't contains phosphates for lower readings.

Vodka dosing help in reducing phosphates, but water changes is the best.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I constantly dose Red Sea No3Po4x to try and remove phosphates but it has always been around 0.5-1.0 no matter what. Apart from not feeding excessively which I'm careful with, what is a good way of reducing phosphates?

See my post above, that's why you have phosphates left over after dosing. Try running GFO or Phosguard.

 

[Sniperhank]

As food and poop decays, it creates both nitrates and phosphates. I'm told it is a 16:1 ratio in terms of decay, but I don't pay that close of attention to it and just aim towards reduction of both.

 

[Terrance]

You also need to keep good weekly maintenance. As mentioned algae soaks up the phosphates, there could be areas in your tank where waste is decaying such as under LR or in the crevices of LR.

 

[Danielbdn]

See my post above, that's why you have phosphates left over after dosing. Try running GFO or Phosguard.

If you are using Red Sea No3Po4X do not use Phosguard or any other Phosphate remover you WILL KILL your fish also be sure to keep you protein skimmer running and get plenty of oxygen in your water.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Can you explain why a phosphate removal product WOULD KILL your fish when dosing the Red Sea product? Always trying to learn, but that doesn't make sense to me. I have used all three multiple times. No fish or corals were lost. Phosphates can be at almost true zero, that will effect your corals but not fish. The open reef is .007ppm phosphates, we can't really get them that low in an aquarium. The Red Sea product will mostly effect nitrates at a roughly 16:1 ratio. That can leave some phosphates still in the water after all nitrates are consumed.

You need to run an effective skimmer because you will be producing a lot more bacteria. If you use too much product, you will cause a bacterial bloom. The water gets cloudy for about 24 hours after you back off dosing. This can drive oxygen levels too low, so keep the surface agitated if it happens. This stuff is very much like vodka dosing. My problem with it is it isn't very selective about the kind of bacteria is stimulates, in my case it was Cyanobacteria that I hadn't seen in years. I feed a lot of fish and have a lot of corals, getting rid of the nitrates has always been easier than keeping phosphates under 0.10ppm for me.

 

[TheGrapeApe]

How effective is a media reactor to drive down phosphates and nitrates

 

[Gregcoyote]

Depending what's in it, very effective.

 

[Danielbdn]

I dosed with the Red Sea and after 3 doses I came home and all my fish and shrimp were dead. The only thing that survived was an urchin and my hermit crabs and snails. The urchin almost died but pulled out of it. I took my water to the LFS to see what they could figure out and all the parameters were good my nitrate was at 0 and my phosphate was 0. After talking to them I told them I had Clear Max phosphate remover in my filter and they said that Red Sea would interact with the Clear Max and leach out the ferric oxide poisoning my fish. I'm not sure if this is what happened but I do know that I lost all my fish 3 days into dosing. But it did work I have no nitrate or phosphate anymore.

 

[TheGrapeApe]

I'm puting in swc phosphate remover po4x4 I believe in my homemade reactor

 

[Spechty37]

Thats pretty cool, I wish I understood the ways things worked a little better I would diy everything I could

 

[Gregcoyote]

I dosed with the Red Sea and after 3 doses I came home and all my fish and shrimp were dead. The only thing that survived was an urchin and my hermit crabs and snails. The urchin almost died but pulled out of it. I took my water to the LFS to see what they could figure out and all the parameters were good my nitrate was at 0 and my phosphate was 0. After talking to them I told them I had Clear Max phosphate remover in my filter and they said that Red Sea would interact with the Clear Max and leach out the ferric oxide poisoning my fish. I'm not sure if this is what happened but I do know that I lost all my fish 3 days into dosing. But it did work I have no nitrate or phosphate anymore.

That's awful, sorry for the loss!

I need to study what Clear Max is composed of, obviously GFO from what you said, but I don't fully understand the chemical reaction that would cause this. The Red Sea product is by my best guess composed of mostly methanol. Alcohol in general doesn't effect ferric oxide, but a lot of people that use this stuff also use GFO, so that's why I am confused as to what happened to you.

 

[jeffaquarius]

I constantly dose Red Sea No3Po4x to try and remove phosphates but it has always been around 0.5-1.0 no matter what. Apart from not feeding excessively which I'm careful with, what is a good way of reducing phosphates?

Ever since i used this filter media my phosphate has been at normal level.

PURA PhosLock Filter Media - 1135 g | thatpetplace.com

.

 

[Danielbdn]

i was confused to I had no problems the first two doses then after the third dose I came home a couple hours after I dosed and found all the fish and shrimp dead and the urchin looking like it was about dead. I took the product and a sample of water to the place I got it from and thats what the guy came up with after all my water tests looked good. In the directions it says "not to use with sulphur based de-nitrators or phosphate and nitrate removers as the different methods of phosphate and nitrate reduction will cause interference." I wouldn't think interference would mean death. It could have also been an oxygen depletion of the tank from a bacteria bloom I guess. But I am not taking any chances in the future I will not use the clear max only Red Sea and I will also dose half the amount they recommend.

 

[Gregcoyote]

That makes sense, you would have noticed a bacterial bloom. Tank can be foggy or even milky. If your oxygen level was already low it could have caused a real problem.