Optimum temp & salinity for our fish?

[bpeitzke]

We have 6 fish in a 40-gal SW FO tank, no live rock (yet), CC substrate. Lost our Emperor Angel to fin rot (we didn't treat soon enough, I think), but remaining 6 appear to be thriving. But I'm not sure whether our temperature and salinity are optimal for them. We have 3 damsels and a dwarf angel (coral beauty), a maroon clown, and one fat 4" puffer (topaz/spotted green). All but the puffer are from Indo-pacific/Fiji area, I believe.

We've been keeping the tank at 78F and SG at 1.020. I got some advice that these are both too low for these fish, and that they would thrive more in temp 82-84F and SG 1.023-1.025. But I also got advice from LFS guy not to keep temp > 80F, and that SG > 1.023 would encourage parasites.

I read Dr. Shimek's paper on environmental conditions, and it made sense to me, but like I said, LFS sources differ.

Where should we be?

Grateful for any advice.

Bob Peitzke

 

[reefrunner69]

I keep my reef tank (been running successfully for over a year at this temp) at 1.025 sg @ 82*F.

 

[Guest]

1.025 and 82* to 84*

 

[bpeitzke]

Agrees with Shimek; makes sense to me. Bummer is the LFS guy our daughter (who dragged us into this hobby) trusts is saying lower. Maybe I can leverage your advice to convince her to edge it higher. It's "her tank" but we are maintaining it(sigh).

We do love & enjoy the fish. They all have names.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[reefrunner69]

It's "her tank" but we are maintaining it(sigh).

Why not get her to read through the site and see what she thinks.

 

[bpeitzke]

Forum vs LFS advice

I've printed a lot of advice from these forums, & given it to her. She reads it and respects it, but seems to have more trust in the LFS guys she has met and discussed her tank with. She seems to feel that they are more qualified b/c they are working in the business. But I get the impression that some of the people in these forums know more than most LFS experts. She is an adult, and it is her tank. We are mere custodians.

 

[ReefLady]

Although I always recommend temps in the 80F - 82F range, and a salinity of 1.025-1.026 for reef tanks, I do believe that FO tanks (without invertebrates such a hermits, snails, etc.) thrive at lower temps and salinities.

78F and SG at 1.020

IMO, these parameters are fine for a FO tank. Although I'd tend to bump up the salinity a bit - probably to at least 1.022 or 1.023, I really don't think you're that far off.

What is more of a concern to me is the bioload you are attempting to maintain in a 40g tank. To the best of my knowledge, no less than a 100g tank is recommended for the Emperor Angel. I'm not very familiar with Puffers, but afaik, most get quite large.

We have 3 damsels and a dwarf angel (coral beauty), a maroon clown, and one fat 4" puffer (topaz/spotted green).

This is the maximum fish capacity for approximately a 60g tank, without the Emperor. If the LFS is recommending these fish choices and numbers for a 40g tank, then, IMO, they are not to be trusted.

But I also got advice from LFS guy not to keep temp > 80F, and that SG > 1.023 would encourage parasites.

A parasite dose not magically appear in a system due to salinity levels or temperatures - it is introduced via a new fish. All new fish should be quarantined, wiithout fail, and if this is done, parasites are not a concern.

She seems to feel that they are more qualified b/c they are working in the business.

How is it that someone who's ultimate goal is profit is considered more knowledgeable than the hobbyist - aka - "caretaker" of these creatures?

She is an adult, and it is her tank. We are mere custodians.

This is my opinion only, but you cannot properly *care* for this tank, if you are not allowed to determine the tank conditions. If she chooses to have the final *say* with these types of decisions, then she should care for the tank.

Sorry if I sound argumentative ... this post isn't intended to be that way.

 

[bpeitzke]

Fish politics

>>argumentative<<

Not at all. I appreciate your advice, and will be compiling it in a summary for our daughter to read.

I agree with your comments on parasites. To me, the LFS advice to keep SG low to discourage parasites sounds like his shortcut b/c he doesn't want to quarantine all his fish. It seems like it's stressing both fish & parasites at SG below their optimum, but it kills the parasites before it kills the fish.

Shimek recommends SG 1.025 +, and you say 1.022-1023, Tim & Kevin say 1.025. I think at least 1.023 would likely be better for our fish than 1.020. Maybe 80 would be a good compromise for temp.

>>How is it that someone who's ultimate goal is profit is considered more knowledgeable than the hobbyist - aka - "caretaker" of these creatures?<<

I agree. I've gotten a lot of good advice from people on these forums, and many of you seem as knowledgeable or more so than most LFS people. But she trusts this one LFS guy (not the one who uses low SG to kill parasites) a lot. She's in Germany now, and we are the caretakers of her tank. I have to respect her wishes and try to convince her, not dictate to her. The fish overcrowding is another example - this LFS guy says we can have more fish in our 40-gal tank. I believe you.

We're still trying to learn how to manage a SW FO tank. Getting small nitrite spikes even after cleaning filter & new charcoal - wonder why?

Hope it settles down to a more manageable time commitment soon.

Cheers,

Bob P

 

[ReefLady]

Shimek recommends SG 1.025 +, and you say 1.022-1023, Tim & Kevin say 1.025. I think at least 1.023 would likely be better for our fish than 1.020. Maybe 80 would be a good compromise for temp.

Let me clarify my above statements. I haven't had personal experience with FO tank for almost a decade now, though I've kept reef tanks since 1990. If I remember correctly, Shimek's recommendation is a reef tank recommendation, rather than FO. Personally, my tank runs at 80F - 82F at 1.025, but it is a reef tank. I would suggest that you take the experience of someone with FO experience tank over my recommendation.

She's in Germany now, and we are the caretakers of her tank. I have to respect her wishes and try to convince her, not dictate to her.

Kudos to you for doing your best - her tank is definitely in good hands.

Getting small nitrite spikes even after cleaning filter & new charcoal - wonder why?

No LR, CC substrate, med-heavy bioload - I don't think you'll get away from small nitrate spikes given these factors. However, small nitrate spikes, or even continual nitrate readings, as long as they are not exceptionally high are not uncommon in FO tanks, and don't usually present a problem.

Best of luck!

 

[bpeitzke]

nitrite spikes

>>nitrate spikes <<

No - nitrite. We do have a CC substrate, just no LR yet. Ammonia has been consistently zero, but NO2 has started small spikes every few days, only one color bar up from the zero reading on our Tetra test chart. We've been treating with Amquel + that neutralizes it. Nitrate have been steady at 5 mg/l, not a worry level as I understand it.

Would adding some LR stop the nitrite spikes? We have a Fluval 204 filter with one basket full of the biohabitat cylinders and two of charcoal.

 

[ReefLady]

No - nitrite.

Oops - my mistake. My only thought would be that your current filtration cannot keep up with the bioload. I'm going to pass this one forward to other FO folks, as I honestly have no experience with mechanical filtration.

We do have a CC substrate

yep, I did get that - I was stating it as a cause of nitrate (having misread nitrite for nitrite). CC substrate is notorious for trapping detritus and maintaining elevated nitrate levels.

Sorry for the mis-read!

 

[bpeitzke]

substrate / nitrates

>>CC substrate is notorious for trapping detritus and maintaining elevated nitrate levels. <<

I suggested switching to sand a while ago, based on advice from this forum. No, she likes the CC.

Would some snails help? We had 4 turbans but they died. I'm not sure whether it was our 1.020 SG or they fell & couldn't get up. We righted them every day, but couldn't during vacation week, came back to dead ones.

 

[ReefLady]

Snails are primarily algae eaters, so although they can fend off potential algae issues, I wouldn't look to them to solve other issues (nitrites/nitrates, etc.). Also, I wouldn't recommend snails unless she agress to raise the salinity - motile inverts need a salinity of at least 1.024.

If you do decide to purchase a couple snails, look at Trochus. They are a bit more expensive, but one Trochus will do the job of 2-3 Turbos. Also, they are able to right themselves on their own. :?

 

[ReefRaff]

80* and 1.025 sg using a refractometer.. If two heads are better than one, then for her to use more than one source for info, would be wise, and inlightining. er Spelling.

 

[steve-s]

Re: Fish politics

I agree with your comments on parasites. To me, the LFS advice to keep SG low to discourage parasites sounds like his shortcut b/c he doesn't want to quarantine all his fish. It seems like it's stressing both fish & parasites at SG below their optimum, but it kills the parasites before it kills the fish.

Just to embelish this point a bit more....

Specific gravities at the 1.020 level will in reality do very little to inhibit or kill SW parasites. Most (not all) parasites will not be affected until the salinity levels are much lower, closer 14 ppt or 1.009 SG. Might want to include that when you explain things.

Cheers
Steve

 

[bpeitzke]

Refractometer - better than hydrometer?

Refractometer? Is that some other type of device to measure specific gravity? We use a cheap plastic hydrometer, same in principal as the ones I use to measure car battery acid. Aren't these simple devices accurate enough?

Cheers,

Bob Peitzke

 

[bpeitzke]

You have no mechanical filter?

Teri,

Aren't you using any mechanical filter in your large tank? (I saw your picture of it.) Does yours rely solely on LR and substrate for its filtering? That would be cool!

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Guest]

I do not use any mechanical filtration other than the occasional Carbon bag, and the Protien skimmer about once a month.

LR, LS and mother nature does the trick

 

[ReefLady]

Refractometer? Is that some other type of device to measure specific gravity?

Yep - this is a refractometer:

Aren't these simple devices accurate enough?

Some ppl have good luck with them, I don't trust them. We had one of these before the refractometer -

The readings fluctuated notoriously, and when we finally bought the refractometer, we realized that the water we thought was at 1.025 was really at 1.029. Ouch.

Aren't you using any mechanical filter in your large tank? (I saw your picture of it.) Does yours rely solely on LR and substrate for its filtering? That would be cool!

No mechanical filtration, unless you include a Protein Skimmer as mechnical filtration. Just LR & DSB (and a refugium). This really isn't unusual - tends to be the "standard" with reef tanks - wet dry's, canister filters, etc., are often recommended for FO tanks, but are not suggested for reef tanks.

With LR & DSB, A/N/N have all tested at 0.00 since tank was set up. This has never varied.
pH = 8.1 (am), to 8.35 (pm)
Ca = 435
dKH = 11.0
p04 = 0.00
Salinity = 1.025
Temp = 80.5F - 81.5F (fall/winter/spring), 81F - 83F (summer)

We also have a relatively small bioload, but the tank was set up with *minimal maintenance* in mind. I run the magnet over the glass a couple times a week, and feed the tank daily. Other than that, we do a 20% water change once a month, and clean out the pumps & skimmer at that time, and add kalk powder to the Nilsen reactor monthly. No other maintenance is done (unless RO/DI filters need replacing).

I'm lazy!

 

[MT79]

LR definitely has a positive effect on the nitrification process. (IMO definitely worth every $) Curing it may be a problem for you though since your tank already has inhabitants. (not ALL LR needs to be cured) I would suggest temp. 80-82, SG 1.023-1.024 (FO/LR tank). Which ever you choose, most importantly keep them as steady as possible. I stress most- LR, LR, LR. I swear by it JMHO