PH Level way too high I think, Help!

[alishasilva]

Hello,

I have had my 55 gal tank since January 2004 it always seems to have a high PH level. It has been as high as 8.8 in the last few days and then down to maybe 8.2 at a low point in the last week or so. I have tried the chemical buffers to attempt to lower it to no avail. We have a blue and yellow tang, a clown fish, a flame angel, some chromis, crabs, starfish and snails (and live rock) that all have been in the tank and are doing fine but my we recently bought 2 Bangaii Cardinals and one already died and the other will not eat and I do not think it's going to make it. I am reading that the PH is critical so I'm thinking this may be the problem as I've heard that sometimes fish won't eat if they do not like the PH level. Any suggestions? All the other fish are doing fine (suprisingly!). Thanks!

Alisha

 

[indy]

What's the PH of your replacement water?

 

[darb2]

Many times existing fish can acclimate to higher ph or even nitrate values. When new fish are added, they get shocked and die. Does the buffer that you are adding lower ph or try to stabalize it at 8.2? Are you dripping calc? Is there anything in your tank that may raise ph? Something is causing ph to rise, the buffer is only temporaily lowering ph before it goes back up. What is your Alk? It sounds like some water changes are neseccary. Try 10-20 % every 3 days for a couple of days.

 

[Atari]

What are you using to measure the pH, and what time of the day are you taking these readings? What are all the other water parameters? Maybe you could give a list of your complete setup to help diagnose the problem.

Also, your aquarium seems very heavily stocked so it may be best to not add any other livestock for the time being.

 

[saberry]

edit

 

[alishasilva]

Thanks for the replies. The PH of my replacement water is around 7.6 (it is filtered tap water). The setup is a 55 gallon tank with a Euro-Reef protien skimmer and about a 10 gallon sump along with an air filtration system which makes the bubbles (sorry, my husband would know better what all of it was!) which was all set up by a reputable LFS. The buffers claim to lower and stabalize the PH but are not doing either. I am not dripping calc, in fact, I do not even know what that is. My Alk is between 0 and .25, usually 0. I am using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals testing kit to test, and lately I have been testing after work, about 7 to 8 pm. The Nitritres are fine (I don't have the specifics as I am at work but they are the lowest level) but the Nitrates are also high, about 80 or so. Thanks again for all your help.

Alisha

 

[sumphead]

Water change, water change, water change. I assume you meant ammoinia was between 0 and .25. Your Alk is the alkalinity and I will assume you dont have a test for that. (I don;t think aquarium pharm makes one-could be wrong) But if your nitrates are up at 80, a water change in critical for your livestock. How often do you do waterchanges? What kind of salt are you using? Can you describe your filtration a little more in detail. I think you may have a nitrate factory there. And lastly how much LR do you have?

R- we are getting somewhere.

 

[indy]

Agreed, way overdue for a water change. Nitrates are not as toxic as ammonia and nitrite, but 80 is really high. It would be extrememely difficult to do a relatively quick acclimation to keep your new fish alive. The cause and solution to your problems is most likely rooted in your equipment and maintenance schedule. Please post a complete listing of both and we'll see what we can do to get your tank straightened out.

FYI, PH is a measurement of how acidic or base your water is. Too far in either direction is a bad thing. Alk. is what helps buffer your PH to keep it stable.

 

[alishasilva]

Hello again,

Just came home and read your replies. I tested again a few minutes ago and you're right, I was referring to ammonia at 0, I have no idea what my Alk is. I'll have to get a test for that. Can you recommend a better complete test kit or should I just buy some individual tests for some of the other tests? PH is still about 8.8, Nitrites at 0, Nitrates at 80, our SG is 1.0225.

Our setup: Euro-Reef protein skimmer set up below the tank which we were told by our LFS was the best on the market and was the only skimmer/filtration system we needed in conjunction with our live rock. We have approximately 40-50 lbs of LR. We started up with the best "live sand" if that matters too. We have a 55 gallon diamond (pentagon) shaped tank that drains to a 10 gallon sump below which also houses the protein skimmer and the pump. We have a 96 watt aquarium light set on top and the fish listed above and one coral (a flower pot coral, I think, that's doing badly too). The salt we use is Instant Ocean when needed and we've only needed to add it 1 or 2 times since January (or so we thought!). We add our filtered tap water as needed a couple times each week and also clean the skimmer at that time.

I hope this gives you more info so you can help us further. I have a feeling I'm going to be buying some RO water this weekend! Thanks again!

Alisha

 

[sumphead]

The clouds are beginning to part, but it's still a little foggy. First, a "reputable" LFS is a myth just like the loch ness monster. Just kidding I am sure there are a few. Your store was correct for the most part on the "berlin" method of filtration. However a lot of factors come into play with that. The most important being your LR. I can tell you now, that you simply don't have enough to provide adequate biological filtration for your current fish load. You more than likey need twice as much, which would then make your tank nearly too small for a tang. I am unfamiliar with a "diamond" shaped tank off the top of my head, but it may be "do-able" for a tang. *shrugs* You say you started up with the "best" live sand. If it came in sealed bags off the shelf, it was not only NOT live, but NOT the best either. But again it will do if you have enough of it. How much did you start with? Another thing that is eating at me, is that you say you use Instant Ocean when needed. What do you mean by "needed"? You don't add it directly to the tank do you?

Ok a breif description of a water change: With good water a salt mix is added in a bucket or a tub and pixed with a small pump until SG, temp, and pH match your existing tank water. Then old water is removed from the tank and replaced with the new water. This should be done at least bi-monthly or as needed. You probably need a 20% water change daily until your nitrates are under control.

Keep us posted. Good luck and use us as much as you need. That's what we are here for!!

HTH,
R-

 

[Atari]

I think sumphead hit the nail on the head.. it sounds as though (we may be wrong) you haven't been doing correct water changes. On average, most people do about 20% every two weeks. This is absolutely necessary or, like you've experienced, nitrates begin to accumulate. Also, the salt mix contains pretty much everything needed to provide a healthy environment for your livestock in terms of salts, trace elements, buffers etc. These get depleted over time so replenishment is needed.

What's happened is the water chemistry of your aquarium has gone out of whack, and I wouldn't be surprised if all your other parameters (Ca,Mg,Alk etc) are experiencing the same effects as your pH.

The correct procedure was already mentioned by sumphead so I'll just add that you should make sure to mix up your saltwater the day before you do the water change. The salt itself is quite harsh so it needs time to mix in thoroughly. A powerhead left running in the bucket overnight works well.

Good luck!

PS - You really need much stronger lighting to keep any corals healthy.

 

[indy]

And more bad news from me after the maintenance concerns. Sorry in advance.

Firstly, how much sand do you have. Is it at least 4 inches deep? If not, its not doing all that a deep sand bed should for filtration.

Change that. Firstly, like has already been stated water change. And lots of them until you water is under control. The PH and nitrate should be taken care of just from that. But your maintenance has really got to improve for the future. Premix your water and adjust it's PH to around 8.2 - 8.4. As you change water out your tank will slowly adjust down, same with the nitrates. I'd suggest more than 20% to get it under control. However I would be afraid that with the water the way it is currently, the shock would be very much bad. So small steps for now.

Secondly. When you say you clean the skimmer a couple times a week. Do you "clean" the skimmer or just dump the cup? I don't currently use a skimmer, but from my understanding it takes a while for it to actually produce waste after every cleaning. If you're not dumping a lot of gunk out (especially at your 'trate lvls), you're probably cleaning it too often for it to do what its supposed to.

Thirdly. What is the output of your pump, and do you have any additional flow? You want to turn your tank over at least 10 times an hour, and preferably around 15 times. If you're getting poor circulation, the water won't get to where the bacteria live for the rock and sand to actually work as a filter.

The good news is that your corals will do much better once your water is in check. Your fish will be happier and live longer also.

Now for the bad.
Firstly, how many chromis do you have? I'm guessing when you say "some" to mean at least 3. That means you've got at least 9 fish already and are still adding. A 55gal standard would be very overstocked at this point. A 55 hex, or any tall tank is seriously overstocked. I'll get to why in a minute. Also, tangs should not be kept in less than a 70gal. Even when they're small they need a bigger tank to be happy. They require a lot of swimming room, which you can't get in a hex shaped tank. The bio-load you currently have is going to make having good water increadibly difficult if not impossible. The "inches of fish per gallon" rule does not apply to saltwater tanks. They should only be stocked to a fraction of what the same size freshwater tank can be. On the plus side, any cleanup crew or corals etc. aren't counted towards the bio-load.

Natural filtration is all about surface area. DSB and live rock have massive amounts of surface area. Significantly more than any WD or other mechanical filter can give. But a hex tank has less available area for the sand and rock to occupy, thus limiting the filters ability to do its job. The water surface area is also important. All the bad gasses have to exit through the surface and be exchaned with oxygen. Again a hex tank has significantly less water surface area for this to happen. If your overflow skims from the surface to pull to the sump, that will greatly aid in the gas exchange. A shallow tank of the same volume gives a lot more surface area for all this to occur in, and stocking guides are aimed at a standard shape tank.

I hate to be a total gloomy gus, but once everything is in check and in control you'll have a nice healthy tank and happy fish. It will be a good chunk of work, but once its done you'll be pleased with the results.

 

[alishasilva]

Ok, I think we're getting somewhere. It sounds like my main problems are regular water changes (as we were doing none, we thought adding water regularly was the same thing!) and some maintenance issues.

To answer your questions: Our definition of "as needed" on adding Instant Ocean to the water WAS (and was is the operative word as now it has changed) we added Instant Ocean to the water whenever we needed to add water and the SG seemed to be a little low (hence why we only added it 1-2 times since January). We will now add it properly every time we do a water change which will be about 2 times a month from all your great advice.

It was stated I need 4 inches of sand, since I currently have about 2 inches, should I simply add to that or take that out and have 4 inches of all new sand?

When my husband cleans the skimmer he dumps the cup and then he cleans it out with a cloth, he also cleans out the sponge portions from time to time, although I'm not sure how often or how.

We have 6 small chromis, they are all about 1/2 inch big. If you want to know our Blue Tang is about 2 1/2 inches, our Yellow Tang about 1 1/2 inches, our Flames Angel about 1 1/2 inch, our clown about 1 inch and our still dying and not eating Bangai Cardinal about 1 1/2 inches.

Speaking of the fish, while we are changing or adding sand to the tank, what do we do with them? We do not have a second tank. Should be buy a cheap 2nd tank (and I mean just a tank, no filtration) like you would buy for a goldfish and put them in there with a air bubble rock for a few hours or will they be ok in their regular tank? Same goes for the crabs (3 of them), Snails (4) and starfish (2)? I assume the bristleworms that decided to appear in our tank on their own will be fine....

I can't thank you all enough. I have hope. Thanks a million!

Alisha

 

[Sparky]

With the skimmer, I just empty the cup. Thats all. I Clean everything on it every 3 months. Yes, it does take a little time to get it to start "producing" again. Mine usually takes about 5-7 days after I clean entirely.

Mike

 

[Atari]

IMO (others will probably disagree) you don't need to add any more sand.

Your main concern at the moment is the very large bioload you have in your aquarium. Would you be able to take some of your fish back to the LFS? I'm not sure even the most experienced aquarist could maintain so many fish in such a small tank. I'd say you have twice, if not thrice, the sustainable numbers.

For now though, work on getting that water chemistry right.

EDIT: I almost forgot, at this point I highly suggest you buy a good book so you can get the basics down. It's really not a difficult hobby once you do that. There are some suggested texts here.

 

[sumphead]

I will agree with atari and say no more sand is needed provided you start to add more Live Rock. My only other concern is the "sponge portions" your hubby cleams from time to time. What sponge things are we talking about. Like a prefilter on the pump or a sponge type filter. You will find if not cleaned VERY often, sponge filters become nitrate factories. Depending on what they are it may be beneficial to remove them.

So:
-Waterchange, waterchange, waterchange, then regular schedule
-find out what the sponges are and remove them if necissary
-begin adding more liverock (good cured liverock)
-consider reducing your bio-load
-test water quality often, usually before and after a waterchange.

Your on your way!

I hope we have helped and keep us posted.

R-