Phosphate Problem - Please Help

[awillemd1]

I have a 90 gallon reef tank with 2 175 watt MH lights. The aquarium has been going for about 9 months, but I don't have any coralline algae growing yet, so I haven't ventured into trying corals yet.

My problem started when I didn't realize that my RO filter was bad. I ended up with a horrible algae bloom. I purchased a Phosphate test kit and realized that high phosphate levels were part of my problem. From there I used a phosphate sponge to bring the levels down to around 0.03 ppm. I reduced the time of my lighting period to only a couple of hours a day. Then I purchased more snails and hermit crabs to try and clean up the mess. I also worked hard with a toothbrush per advise here.

Things were going very well and I started to slowly increase the lighting period. However, I soon realized once the period was about 9 hours that my creatures couldn't keep up with the algae growth. I went back in and rechecked the phosphate level and it had risen back up to around 0.5 ppm.
(To bring this back down I purchased some more of the phosphate sponge and this morning the level was back around 0.03. This is an expensive way to run and aquarium!).

My question is what caused this? I checked my RO water and it is perfectly clean, according to my testkit (salifert). My calcium level is around 440 ppm which I thought would cause calcium phosphate to precipitate out ( I thought I read this somewhere, maybe on the Kalkwasser container). Was the increase in phosphate simply coming from the decomposed algae? Also, why am I not seeing lots of corraline algae growth? I started seeing some, but it seemed to stop possibly around the time of the increase in phosphate.

Any thoughts or advice would be most appreciated. :?

Awillemd1

 

[Biggen]

I have a 90 gallon reef tank with 2 175 watt MH lights. The aquarium has been going for about 9 months, but I don't have any coralline algae growing yet, so I haven't ventured into trying corals yet.

That is weird. In a 9 month period you should see a lot of coralline algae. For the two months my tank has been set up, it has totally covered the rocks. What is your Alk? With that high of Ca it should be taking off.

My question is what caused this?

There are three ways that phosphate can be getting into your system: topoff/water changes, food, and salt mix.

Now you say that your RO water is now fine so I guess you either changed the membrane or got a new one, correct? If this is so, than either your food or salt mix is suspect. Make sure whatever salt mix you use says "Phosphate Free" on the package.

As for the food, what do you feed and how much? Frozen food is notoriously high in phosphates.

What are your nitrates, btw. I am not so sure that phosphates are only to blame there. Might be a compounded problem.

Yes, the use of Kalk will precipitate out phosphate.

 

[Guest]

I would like to know the answer to this also,,, I will say what I have found which can be taken with a grain of salt...

I have PO4 problems around the 0.3 phase...
I do water changes 25% 4 times in 2 weeks. Level drops to almost non detectable...Then I test a few days later and they are about 0.2 or so...now...

I think the PO4 leaches out of the sand bed? it is rather strange... The water I use is RO and there are no detectable PO4 found in make up or change water...It has baffled me.. I feed every other day and no more than the fish and corals consume and NORI for the Tang.... Now, I know blender mush can contain PO4 because of the raw seafood used, however Nitrate I would think would be more evident... Not the case though.. Wierd Science

 

[MantisFreak]

I don't have any coralline algae growing yet

Phosphates inhibit coralline growth plus it also takes a tank some time to age.

I didn't realize that my RO filter was bad

Do you have an RO unit or and RO/DI unit? RO does very little to phosphates, it's the DI filter that removes phosphates. On top of that fish foods and some additives contain phosphates.

I checked my RO water and it is perfectly clean

Did you test freshwater with a saltwater kit? Most saltwater test kits are calibrated to a SG of 1.025 and if you used only fresh water that's why it didn't give you a reading.

My calcium level is around 440 ppm which I thought would cause calcium phosphate to precipitate out

Calcium and alkalinity need to be in balance. If they are in balance and you have the proper amount of magnesium, then you won't end up with any snowstorms.

it seemed to stop possibly around the time of the increase in phosphate.

Yes, as discussed above.

Was the increase in phosphate simply coming from the decomposed algae?

Yes and no. The algae was masking the amount of phosphate really in your system. It wasn't in your water column to be tested for because the algae was grabbing as much of it as possible and using it for fertilizer. When you thought you had 0 phosphates, you really had tons, it was just bound up in the algae. (The same thing can happen with nitrates). So yes, you are correct that dieing algae is responsible for putting phosphates in the water column. However that's the best place for it to be as you can do a water change with RO/DI water (don't forget the DI) and start to remove this phosphate. You can buy addon DI units lots of places. In addition, using Kalk will cause phosphates to precipitate out of the water (but not out of living algae). The continued use of Kalk will help, adding DI will really help, and watching what types of foods you add to your tank will help.

Although, I hope you have test kits for Ph, Ca, and Alk. I don't recommend that people use Kalk unless they know all of these parameters.

PS----please list what you feed your fish too.

 

[MantisFreak]

Well golly, you guys were posting while I was typing.

 

[Biggen]

Well golly, you guys were posting while I was typing.

Your advice was great. I was kinda shooting in the dark.

 

[MantisFreak]

Thanks---I looked at your post, you weren't shooting in the dark at all.

I stole this shamelessly from another board without permission. Sorry Mike (actually, he won't care).

Formula one = 1100 ppm
formula two = 1200 ppm
prime reef = 900 ppm
brine shrimp = 720 ppm
marine snow = 16 ppm
coral vital = 580 ppm
golden pearls = 15000 ppm
gold flakes = 8500 ppm
Tahitian Blend = 1400ppm
saltwater staple flakes -= 15000ppm
combisan = 1.8 ppm
nori = 6400 ppm

 

[Biggen]

Is that ppm of phosphate??

If so, I had no idea nori was so high!!

 

[MantisFreak]

Yes. (I have not gone back and verified his sources. However, he isn't a throw out estimates kind of guy).

Scary stuff indeed. That's why I like my refugium. I love Golden Pearls. Take a look at the list. The first week I used it I had a mess on my hands regarding phosphates. You learn to TARGET FEED corals with the stuff and not just throw it in the tank.

Ha, Ha. If it can be done wrong, I've done it wrong at least once. 8O

 

[Guest]

Ha, Ha. If it can be done wrong, I've done it wrong at least once

I have too... it is a frustrating thing when you have no refugim and battle it over and over again...

 

[NaH2O]

Wow, nice posts everyone. I was thinking about whether the RO water was tested with a saltwater test kit. Great info, MantisFreak, on the phosphate content of foods. Kudos your way!!

 

[awillemd1]

Thank you everyone for your help!

I can now supply some more information, but to me it is still confusing.

What is your Alk? With that high of Ca it should be taking off.

Currently my alk is about 8.5 dKH. My pH is about 8.0. I have been using vinegar to kill off Aiptasia and it has lowered my pH a little in the last week.

Also, I replaced the RO membrane about 6 months ago and I checked both my RO makeup water and my freshly prepared saltwater and both tested negative for phosphate. I have been thinking about getting a DI filter, but since I don't detect any phosphate with my kit I have hesitated in spending the money. I use Instant Ocean salt which has always tested as having 0 phosphate for me.

I only have two fish, so I don't think I feed that much - on average it is probably about every third day. Actually, my fish look like they are a little overweight. I use flakes called Aquadine. I went to their webpage to find out how much phosphate they have in them, but they didn't have this information posted. I don't use Kalk currently because it didn't seem to be effective for me. I read that you really need to have a certain level of CO2 in your aquarium for this to be effective and since I only have two fish I am assuming that my level is too low.

Phosphates inhibit coralline growth plus it also takes a tank some time to age.

Maybe this is why I haven't been successful yet in getting corraline algae to grow. Also, I only have an RO system right now, but it seems to be effective according to my testkit results. My Salifert testkit is rated for use for salt or fresh water.

Calcium and alkalinity need to be in balance. If they are in balance and you have the proper amount of magnesium, then you won't end up with any snowstorms.

I wonder if this isn't the heart of my problem. I don't have a magnesium test kit, but maybe I need to get one. Could the algae have used up all my magnesium and Iodine? I added a little of both these recently, but I am scared to add too much since I can't test for them right now. Should a magnesium and Iodine test kit be a standard part of my repertoire?

Well since almost all foods contain phosphates it looks like this is just going to be an ongoing problem that must be contained through judicious use of food and water changes. Is this what everyone does to manage their phosphate levels? :?

awillemd1

 

[captivereefs]

What type of substrate do you have. Sand or crushed coral?

 

[awillemd1]

What type of substrate do you have. Sand or crushed coral?

Funny you should ask that. I am not really sure what I have since I was given a used set up by a friend. I think some of it is ocean grunge from Garf and some of it is sand. I have started trying to syphon some and I find that I remove quite a lot of it. It is less than an inch deep throughout my aquarium and it is off white and black in color. It is mostly of the size of sand.

I have been contemplating adding some more of something, but I hadn't figured out what or how to go about it yet.

Are you thinking that my substrate could somehow be the cause of my high phosphate no corraline algae problem? :?

awillemd1

 

[MantisFreak]

Boy,

Test kit makers are going to LOVE me for this post. I think that everyone should own test kits for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Calcium, Alkalinity, PH, Magnesium, and Phosphates. If you dose Iron, have an iron test kit. If you dose iodine, have an iodine test kit. If you dose strontium, have a strontium test kit, etc., etc., and so on.

Here's an interesting article about magnesium. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

If you have excess phosphates for a period of time, it can become bound in numerous ways. I've already mentioned algae. However, even LR and aragonite sand can all bind with phosphates if you have low ph. I could type for 15 minutes or I can cheat. I'm going to cheat. Read this article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/chem.htm It will also give you a number of phosphate export methods.

 

[captivereefs]

If the substrate is to coarse than it can trap debris. That would lead to high phosphates if you do not have enough critters to consume it. Vaccuming helps to but can become a pain. I would remove the substrate and install a Deep Sand Bed. Use southdown tropical playsand from homedepot if you can. Otherwise Carib Sea aragamx is the same thing. Or go get your own from the gulf! This is what i would do if it were my tank. If you had a picture that would help to!

 

[awillemd1]

I think that everyone should own test kits for Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Calcium, Alkalinity, PH, Magnesium, and Phosphates.

I have all of those except magnesium which I guess I will purchase soon. I have thought about getting an Iodine test kit as well, but since I don't have any corals yet I haven't bothered.

Here's an interesting article about magnesium. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

Thank you for the article references! I will definitely check those out. One of the most fun things about this hobby is the constant learning.

Use southdown tropical playsand from homedepot if you can. Otherwise Carib Sea aragamx is the same thing. Or go get your own from the gulf!

Can I add a new substrate directly to my tank, slowly of course, without taking out the liverock, fish and inverts? As you mentioned I can easily go to the beach here and pick up some sand.

Thanks again for all the help!

awillemd1

 

[NaH2O]

IMO, taking sand from the beach isn't such a good idea. You really don't know what is in it (i.e. pollutants).

 

[awillemd1]

Thank you! I hadn't thought of that. It seems, however, that there could be some beneficial bacteria or organisms that could come from the beach as well.?

awillemd1

 

[captivereefs]

If you take it from the water it should be okay. There are lots of companys selling florida live sand which is the same thing!