Qt deaths

[royalturtle]

I'm sorry if this is the wrong board - I have a couple of sudden deaths, and was looking for some help to see if they were preventable. I have a 10g qt (small, I know) set up with cf lights, an internal filter, a heater, and some rocks for hiding. I have quarantined 5 fish (2 ocellaris clowns, a firefish, a bangaii cardinal, and a yellow watchman goby - 1 or 2 at a time) in this tank with no problems. I cycled the sponge for the filter in my dt for about four weeks, during the initial dt cycle 4 months ago, and it had been running continuously in the qt since. 13 days ago I purchased a small Royal Gramma and a small (~2") Kole tang from live aquaria and began quarantining them. I changed the water (90%) the day before adding the fish. All seemed normal last night, they would both hide when first approached but otherwise were swimming around and eating well. I was feeding strips of nori on a veggie clip, as well as spirulina flakes, New Life Spectrum marine formula pellets, and frozen mysis shrimp on occasion - not all at once, I was cycling through to give variety and try not to over feed. I tested the ammonia last night, got a reading of 0, SG 1.023, temp 77F. This morning I went in to feed and both fish were dead. No signs of trauma, temp is stable. The tang has a couple of light colored patches on his tail, not sure if that is a post-mortem change - I didn't notice it yesterday. I tested nitrates today (should have done it yesterday, I know) trying to find a cause for the deaths, and they were between 10-20 ppm. This is definitely much higher than I ever get in my dt, but is this high enough to kill the fish? Any other ideas? I just hate that they died, and if it was a potential husbandry issue I would like to avoid making the same mistake in the future. Thank you for your help!

 

[herp_mommy]

Beneficial bacteria will die off if it has no food source (the ammonia) So, while it could have been cycled and taken care of the previously QT'd fish, It might not have been ready for the fish you just put in. You said the Ammonia was 0, and nitrAtes were low, did you test for nitrite? The bacteria could have been building back, but only converted to nitrite. High nitrites are also toxic.

 

[royalturtle]

Thank you for the response! I did not test nitrites, as I had not thought of the possibility of the bacteria only converting one step. I just tested them now, not sure if having dead fish in the tank for an unknown amount of time overnight would have affected it, but it tested at 0.5 ppm. Is that high enough to kill the fish acutely like that?

 

[somethingsfishy]

Those levels shouldn't kill any fish. How long did the qt run without fish?

 

[royalturtle]

About a day. I moved two clowns out of quarantine into the display tank and replaced the water one day, then the new fish came the next day and went into quarantine. That was 13 days ago.

 

[herp_mommy]

Ideally, in a fully cycled tank, nitrites would be 0. My guess is that ammonia built up, but with some bacteria still probably alive, it started to convert into nitrite. Nitrite toxicity levels vary from species to species, and the size of the fish. But I assume with a 10gal tank, they were both pretty small.

 

[herp_mommy]

Also- did you lest the test develop for 5 minutes?

 

[royalturtle]

Yes, I timed it for 5 minutes.

 

[herp_mommy]

Some fish can be affected with 0.25ppm of nitrite. And some can tolerate high levels... I'm trying to find data for the kole tang and royal gramma now.
The only thing is that it could have just come from the fish decaying, and might not have been the cause of death.
I doubt live aquaria has a livestock guarantee that's two weeks long. Did you feed anything new close to the 12 or 13th day?

 

[somethingsfishy]

Oh so they were in qt for 13 days. What were the levels when they were first introduced? Is it possible for something to have gotten into the tank (chemical)?

 

[royalturtle]

Thanks for all your time! I did not feed anything new; I had been cycling through the same foods the whole time. And live aquaria actually does have a 14 day guarantee, so I just squeezed in there as far as that goes.

 

[royalturtle]

Somethingfishy - levels were all 0 (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) on day 1, SG 1.023 (matched the bag they came in), pH 8.2, Kh 10. I use ro/di water and reef crystals. I have been trying to wrack my brain to think if I could have gotten anything in the water last night, but I just can't think of anything. No meds or chemicals were added at any point. I gave them a new strip of seaweed on the veggie clip, but it was a piece of the same sheet I had been using the whole time. There is a lid on the qt, to prevent jumping from firefish and the like, so don't think anything could have accidentally been sprayed in there. Still trying to replay everything I did last night though to see if I can think of something. If this was preventable I want to prevent it next time!

 

[herp_mommy]

Was there enough oxygen exchange going on? Without surface agitation-which is seen less often in QT- the O2 could have dropped quickly. Hope you can contact live aquaria and see about that guarantee.

 

[somethingsfishy]

I don't think LA is going to be any help at this point. If it were gas exchange issues the other fish would have had problems. Did you add or change any equipment since the new fish began QT? All fish ate the same foods?

 

[royalturtle]

The equipment was the same all the way through, and was the same equipment used when the fish in the dt went through quarantine. The dt fish and qt fish were eating the same foods. I don't have a powerhead in the qt, but the internal filter creates a bit of a current at the surface, I would have thought that would be enough, and none of the previous fish died, but I don't really know how to tell for sure if it's enough. As far as live aquaria, I had a couple inverts die on me during the 14 day period and LA was very helpful; I have a claim in to them now, so hopefully they honor their warranty as well this time.

 

[royalturtle]

Just a quick update, in case anyone is considering dealing with live aquaria - they responded to my claim within a few hours and issued a refund, no questions asked. Still don't know why the fish died though. Thank you again for the effort and assistance.

 

[BigRedsReefs10]

Yeah LA has great customer service, glad they made it right for you

 

[somethingsfishy]

That's amazing customer service. I didn't think they would bother since it was almost two weeks.

 

[royalturtle]

Yeah, they've been pretty great any time I've dealt with them. 14 day guarantee on livestock, even CUC and inverts, and 30 day on captive grown coral. Just wish their free shipping order size was a little lower. I'm still fighting with another site to honor their warranty for a DOA coral - I may be a LA only customer at this point.

 

[somethingsfishy]

I've never bought fish online. I did use reefcleaners for my cuc. Half were doa but RC refunded my whole order. I like that type of company.

Now as to why they died, I'm stuck.