Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Saltwater and Reef > Saltwater Reef Aquaria
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 07-15-2012, 03:12 PM   #11
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Schism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lima, Ohio
Posts: 2,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidy07
I thought It was bad to siphon or disturb the sand bed
Only time that is ever true is if you have a deep sand bed that has been neglected for long period of time resulting in the buildup of many noxious gases.
__________________

__________________
29g Mixed Reef, 150w 14k Phoenix MH w/ Moonlights, Reef Octopus BH1000 HOB Skimmer, Ecotech Vortech MP10es, ReefKeeper Lite (Plus), PH Probe, Temp Probe, ATO, Carbon/GFO Reactor.
Schism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 04:06 PM   #12
AA Team Emeritus
 
Wy Renegade's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Misconceptions.

The sand sifting star is almost 4 years old and he has survived even getting caught in a powerhead. DSB's are not required. Do they do well in aquariums? Not all the time. Also they are detrivores, omnivores, carnivores. The reason DSB's are recommended and why they dont usually do well is because they are put in a low bioload system that does not get fed enough. DSB's laughably better ensure more detritus/waste to feed on since essentially DSB's are nutrient 'sinks'. With proper feeding they do just fine.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. My information is not based on misconceptions, it is based on fairly extensive research of the organism in question via a number of internet sites by both aquarium and scientific in nature, so was not limited to aquarium sites or the reported successes or failures of aquarists. No where did I come across anything to indicate that they survive based on feeding, so I would like to see the basis of that statement beyond just your own observations or experiences. In fact, a quick search of aquarium sites will easily show that the vast majority of efforts to maintain these organisms in captivity result in failure not success. As always, there are going to be exceptions to any rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
But back on sand bed subject, DSB's need maintained like any other sand bed, that includes siphoning. Would like to know why you think its not a good idea?

DSB's do not export phosphate. So why wouldn't you siphon it? By not atleast occasionally siphoning a deep sand bed, you are asking for problems. This is a common reason many DSB's fail.
In fact, the most common reasons for failure of a DSB are threefold, and non of them have to do with siphoning. The first and most common is that people don't do proper research into how to properly set-up and establish a DSB, so they have truly failed before they ever get started. Another is that people can't/don't leave them alone to function the way they were intended to function; they constantly mess with them and introduce oxygen into areas it shouldn't be in. And the last is that they fail to maintain the proper population of microfauna which are required to keep a DSB from compacting and establishing gas pockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Only time that is ever true is if you have a deep sand bed that has been neglected for long period of time resulting in the buildup of many noxious gases.
Again, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you constantly stir or siphon the DSB, you eliminate the anaerobic conditions which are required for this type of system to truly work. In other words you are simply maintaining a non functioning DSB. The entire purpose of establishing a DSB is to establish those anearobic bacteria. Why would you constantly disrupt the very system you are trying to establish? While I have seen some argue that this system can be maintained by siphoning half the DSB once a year, it cannot be maintained by siphoning the entire sandbed once a week which appears to be what you are proposing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
DSB's do not export phosphate. So why wouldn't you siphon it? By not atleast occasionally siphoning a deep sand bed, you are asking for problems.
Nor does any type of sandbed. Additionally, siphoning will not remove all the phosphates from your system. fairly recent research would indicate that sand as well as liverock in fact binds to phosphates and after it reaches a certain point begins to release that phosphate back into the system. So by your definition failing to replace you entire sandbed every so many years is asking for failure. The ways to combat phosphates themselves is by introducing and maintaining a algae trough, an algae turf scrubber, a refugium with a healthy population of macroalgae, a extremely high flow system with a very healthy microalgae population, or the use of some type of phosphate-binding agent which will bind it more easily than the sand.

If in fact your desire is a phospate or nutrient free tank, the best method for doing so is to maintain a barebottom tank so you can daily remove waste and debris.
__________________

__________________
the Bog

"Listen to some of these guys talk, and it's like they were born from their momma's belly with a fishkeeping encyclopedia in one hand and an API kit in the other" (unrevealed).
Wy Renegade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 04:59 PM   #13
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Schism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lima, Ohio
Posts: 2,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. My information is not based on misconceptions, it is based on fairly extensive research of the organism in question via a number of internet sites by both aquarium and scientific in nature, so was not limited to aquarium sites or the reported successes or failures of aquarists. No where did I come across anything to indicate that they survive based on feeding, so I would like to see the basis of that statement beyond just your own observations or experiences. In fact, a quick search of aquarium sites will easily show that the vast majority of efforts to maintain these organisms in captivity result in failure not success. As always, there are going to be exceptions to any rule.
Not direct feeding, feeding a tank. When you have sufficient food source in the system through both fish and feeding. Both food and fish produce waste, and it all ends up as detritus. Many people who fail with these creatures simply do not have a large enough food source, so in that aspect you are completely correct. However the fact they feed on 'microfuana' as you put it and that im depleting is not accurate and if you think about it makes no sense considering this animal has been alive for 4 years. It does not take 4 years to starve to death. You are right that they fail in many aquariums, but do they fail in all? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade
In fact, the most common reasons for failure of a DSB are threefold, and non of them have to do with siphoning. The first and most common is that people don't do proper research into how to properly set-up and establish a DSB, so they have truly failed before they ever get started. Another is that people can't/don't leave them alone to function the way they were intended to function; they constantly mess with them and introduce oxygen into areas it shouldn't be in. And the last is that they fail to maintain the proper population of microfauna which are required to keep a DSB from compacting and establishing gas pockets.
Im referring to 'properly' setup DSB's. No amount of oxygen depleted sand or microfauna will cope with the fact DSB's do not process phosphates. Also there are three layers to a deep sand bed. Aerobic, anaerobic, and anoxic. And i am referring to siphoning the Aerobic layer of the DSB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade
Again, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you constantly stir or siphon the DSB, you eliminate the anaerobic conditions which are required for this type of system to truly work. In other words you are simply maintaining a non functioning DSB. The entire purpose of establishing a DSB is to establish those anearobic bacteria. Why would you constantly disrupt the very system you are trying to establish? While I have seen some argue that this system can be maintained by siphoning half the DSB once a year, it cannot be maintained by siphoning the entire sandbed once a week which appears to be what you are proposing.
Again, 3 zones here. Aerobic zone is the area we are siphoning. And yes a DSB is recommended to be entirely siphoned half or less at a time about 1-2 times a year. The effect is null on disturbing the life. A deep sand bed remains perfectly functional with this 'proper maintenance'.

Leaving a DSB sit is no maintenance. And siphoning the aerobic zone weekly is hardly what id recommend but the point is it still needs to be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade
Nor does any type of sandbed. Additionally, siphoning will not remove all the phosphates from your system. fairly recent research would indicate that sand as well as liverock in fact binds to phosphates and after it reaches a certain point begins to release that phosphate back into the system. So by your definition failing to replace you entire sandbed every so many years is asking for failure. The ways to combat phosphates themselves is by introducing and maintaining a algae trough, an algae turf scrubber, a refugium with a healthy population of macroalgae, a extremely high flow system with a very healthy microalgae population, or the use of some type of phosphate-binding agent which will bind it more easily than the sand.
If you understand where phosphate comes from then you will understand why phosphate is not a problem with a properly maintained sand bed.

Not even the ocean is phosphate free, however we are talking about TOO MUCH phosphate, neither of which sand or live rock will produce massive amounts of. The problems is the rotting organic matter that is left to rot.

A deep sand bed is not self sufficient and it was never designed to be. It still has to be maintained like any other sand bed. The misconception is that its a sit and forget method.

Introducing an algae scrubber to fix a left alone DSB is hardly a fix. It too requires maintenance, space, money and power. The fix for a DSB involves a well maintained DSB.....there is not a need for a fix if you dont create the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade
If in fact your desire is a phospate or nutrient free tank, the best method for doing so is to maintain a barebottom tank so you can daily remove waste and debris.
Could not agree more, however, BB, SSB, and DSB can and will all work with similar results with the correct maintenance.
__________________
29g Mixed Reef, 150w 14k Phoenix MH w/ Moonlights, Reef Octopus BH1000 HOB Skimmer, Ecotech Vortech MP10es, ReefKeeper Lite (Plus), PH Probe, Temp Probe, ATO, Carbon/GFO Reactor.
Schism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #14
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Flreefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flreefer
I have a 2" sandbed in my refugium, which has a useable space of 19x12". It has been set-up for 1 1/2 years. I've often thought about siphoning the sand, but didn't want to disturb my Macro ( sm. grape Caulerpa, Prolifera, and Chaeto) or the pods. Is this something I should do? I don't have a nitrate or phosphate issue, but have wondered if this is something I should be doing.
Hey guys.... What do you think?
__________________
Flreefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 05:24 PM   #15
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Schism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lima, Ohio
Posts: 2,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flreefer

Hey guys.... What do you think?
Refugiums need the same care. It would be beneficial to do often especially considering 2" is not a DSB. It will not effect your pod population and shouldnt mess with your macro. Refugiums become settling tanks so my guess is thats where youll find a lot of your waste.
__________________
29g Mixed Reef, 150w 14k Phoenix MH w/ Moonlights, Reef Octopus BH1000 HOB Skimmer, Ecotech Vortech MP10es, ReefKeeper Lite (Plus), PH Probe, Temp Probe, ATO, Carbon/GFO Reactor.
Schism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 05:41 PM   #16
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Flreefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,984
Thanks for the input, Schism!! Gonna be hard to siphon, being basically on the floor!! But I guess that will just give me a nice weak draw.
What's the best way to do it without pulling all the sand with it? Small tank gravel cleaner, with a small diameter hose?
__________________
Flreefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 06:19 PM   #17
AA Team Emeritus
 
Wy Renegade's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Not direct feeding, feeding a tank. When you have sufficient food source in the system through both fish and feeding. Both food and fish produce waste, and it all ends up as detritus. Many people who fail with these creatures simply do not have a large enough food source, so in that aspect you are completely correct. However the fact they feed on 'microfuana' as you put it and that im depleting is not accurate and if you think about it makes no sense considering this animal has been alive for 4 years. It does not take 4 years to starve to death. You are right that they fail in many aquariums, but do they fail in all? No?.
Nice clarification, but not the way your initial post reads in regards to "feeding." So just for clarification, you maintained this same star in your tank with weekly siphonings for that entire four year period?

In regards to the microfauna, that statement is completely accurate. If you allow the debris from your weekly siphonings to settle and looked through it closely with a microscope or even a very good magnifying glass, you are going to find all kinds of microfauna within that water; from micro brittlestars to bacteria. Those organisms live within the sandbed in the water and on the sandgrains and when you remove that water and sandgrains by siphoning you do in fact reduce or deplete the microfauna by default. I'm correct in that they fail in the majority of aquariums, do they fail in all no. As I stated, they are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but encouraging those who do not understand how to properly maintain these animals to keep them is a huge error in my opinion. And simply saying proper feeding isn't going to cut it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Im referring to 'properly' setup DSB's. No amount of oxygen depleted sand or microfauna will cope with the fact DSB's do not process phosphates. Also there are three layers to a deep sand bed. Aerobic, anaerobic, and anoxic. And i am referring to siphoning the Aerobic layer of the DSB.
Clarification, clarification, clarification. No were in your initial posts did you account for any of these clarifications. When posting general broadsweeping statements or threads like "siphoning your sandbed" proper clarification is needed if your intent is to educate. Someone who doesn't know any better and simply read your post and then went out and started completely vaccuming their entire DSB every week is destined for failure no?

The simple fact is, no sandbed processes phosphates, and you can't claim to be processing your sandbed clean enough on a weekly basis to remove all phosphate and yet leave enough nutrients behind to support the microfauna required to support that sand-sifting star. The two points are counter intuitive. If in fact enough phosphates (i.e. nutrients) are being left behind to support the microfauna, then there are enough phosphates being left behind to bind up in the sand and liverock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Again, 3 zones here. Aerobic zone is the area we are siphoning. And yes a DSB is recommended to be entirely siphoned half or less at a time about 1-2 times a year. The effect is null on disturbing the life. A deep sand bed remains perfectly functional with this 'proper maintenance'.
Again, good clarification, but need for others to understand your point. However, to say that the effect is null is completely inaccurate. The fact is that siphoning of that portion of the sandbed depletes the microfauna severely and it has to reseed from the unsiphoned half of the sandbed. This is in fact why only once or twice a year siphonings are recommended no?

In regards to the three zones, can you please clarify your position on this. Anoxic by definition means without oxygen, the same as anaerobic, so I'm curious to see on what basis you are trying to seperate the oxygen depleted layer into two seperate layers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Leaving a DSB sit is no maintenance. And siphoning the aerobic zone weekly is hardly what id recommend but the point is it still needs to be done.
True enough, however a DSB can be properly maintained without siphoning. It can be done with the regular reintroduction of the proper microfauna which burrows and tunnels its way through the DSB maintaining the functionality of the DSB by doing so. That is not maintainance free. You are quite correct in your assertion that a DSB needs to be maintained. However you are incorrect in that the only way to do so properly is by siphoning. There is always more than one way to do things properly in this hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
If you understand where phosphate comes from then you will understand why phosphate is not a problem with a properly maintained sand bed.

Not even the ocean is phosphate free, however we are talking about TOO MUCH phosphate, neither of which sand or live rock will produce massive amounts of. The problems is the rotting organic matter that is left to rot.
Actually some recent research would tend to disagree with you. Some studies I've seen indicate that phosphate binds into the sand and LR even with a properly maintained aquarium and sandbed. I fully understand why phosphate is not a problem with a properly maintained fully funtioning system. I believe that part of our differences here is in term of how you and I are defining maintained. You appear to be trying to assert that there is only one proper way to maintain a sandbed and I am simply disagreeing with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
A deep sand bed is not self sufficient and it was never designed to be. It still has to be maintained like any other sand bed. The misconception is that its a sit and forget method.
To my knowledge no one who truly understands them would argue that they are self-sufficient and that they require no maintainence. Our aquariums are by definition a closed ecosystem and maintance is required on each and every type of sandbed and/or system we employ. Anyone who tries the sit and forget method with any type of SW system is doomed to eventual failure regardless of the type of sandbed or lack thereof that they employ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Introducing an algae scrubber to fix a left alone DSB is hardly a fix. It too requires maintenance, space, money and power. The fix for a DSB involves a well maintained DSB.....there is not a need for a fix if you dont create the problem.
I never proposed any such thing. I proposed the addition of a source of algae as a solution to the removal of phosphates. Which without the actual removal of that algae from time to time is also not effective, as algae binds but does not remove phosphates. I'm not proposing a left along DSB at all, I'm simply stating that a DSB can properly be maintained without siphoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Could not agree more, however, BB, SSB, and DSB can and will all work with similar results with the correct maintenance.
Absolutely agree that maintenance of any system is required and that any and all of them can and will work with similar results with the correct maintenance. I was simply pointing out that one must understand the "correct" maintenance for their particular system. It is not a one-size-fits-all methodology.
__________________
the Bog

"Listen to some of these guys talk, and it's like they were born from their momma's belly with a fishkeeping encyclopedia in one hand and an API kit in the other" (unrevealed).
Wy Renegade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 06:26 PM   #18
AA Team Emeritus
 
Wy Renegade's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 4,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schism View Post
Refugiums need the same care. It would be beneficial to do often especially considering 2" is not a DSB. It will not effect your pod population and shouldnt mess with your macro. Refugiums become settling tanks so my guess is thats where youll find a lot of your waste.
I agree for the most part, however you will disturb the macro if you are siphoning fully, unless it established on LR rather than in the sandbed. If you're careful, you should be able to replant without much issue. I've seen some good recommendations regarding removing the sandbed in refugions and simply maintaining a bare-bottom with LR for the macros to establish on. That way you can move or remove the LR when siphoning.
__________________
the Bog

"Listen to some of these guys talk, and it's like they were born from their momma's belly with a fishkeeping encyclopedia in one hand and an API kit in the other" (unrevealed).
Wy Renegade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 07:23 PM   #19
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Schism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lima, Ohio
Posts: 2,093
Sorry for not clarifying, I just always have the time to write long posts and explanations like these and i try to keep it basic, but this is far from a basic subject. Ill respond when i get a chance to sit down.
__________________
29g Mixed Reef, 150w 14k Phoenix MH w/ Moonlights, Reef Octopus BH1000 HOB Skimmer, Ecotech Vortech MP10es, ReefKeeper Lite (Plus), PH Probe, Temp Probe, ATO, Carbon/GFO Reactor.
Schism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2012, 08:12 PM   #20
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
Fishfighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 193
All I got out of it was blah, blah, blah, and more blah! Did you guys have your dictionaries out or what?! If your sandbed Is dirty clean it. How's that for clarification? Not trying to be a smarta@* or anything but that was hilarious.
__________________

__________________
Fishfighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sand, sand bed, siphon

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off








» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.