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Old 07-15-2012, 08:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

Nice clarification, but not the way your initial post reads in regards to "feeding." So just for clarification, you maintained this same star in your tank with weekly siphonings for that entire four year period?
Sorry for not being more clear. But yes same star. Weekly or biweekly siphoning. Also this star has been in 2 different tanks in the past 4 years.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

In regards to the microfauna, that statement is completely accurate. If you allow the debris from your weekly siphonings to settle and looked through it closely with a microscope or even a very good magnifying glass, you are going to find all kinds of microfauna within that water; from micro brittlestars to bacteria. Those organisms live within the sandbed in the water and on the sandgrains and when you remove that water and sandgrains by siphoning you do in fact reduce or deplete the microfauna by default. I'm correct in that they fail in the majority of aquariums, do they fail in all no. As I stated, they are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but encouraging those who do not understand how to properly maintain these animals to keep them is a huge error in my opinion. And simply saying proper feeding isn't going to cut it.
Yes fully aware of microfuana. However, siphoning can not deplete the sand bed of microfuana. Put my sand under a microscope and you will see the same microfuana. Ive done this btw. For some reason people tend to think your siphoning all life out of your bed, its impossible to do. They reproduce quickly and not every area of your tank is subject to siphoning, not every grain of sand.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

Clarification, clarification, clarification. No were in your initial posts did you account for any of these clarifications. When posting general broadsweeping statements or threads like "siphoning your sandbed" proper clarification is needed if your intent is to educate. Someone who doesn't know any better and simply read your post and then went out and started completely vaccuming their entire DSB every week is destined for failure no?
This thread was not directly aimed at DSB's. Failure? No. But your right i should have clarified. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

The simple fact is, no sandbed processes phosphates, and you can't claim to be processing your sandbed clean enough on a weekly basis to remove all phosphate and yet leave enough nutrients behind to support the microfauna required to support that sand-sifting star. The two points are counter intuitive. If in fact enough phosphates (i.e. nutrients) are being left behind to support the microfauna, then there are enough phosphates being left behind to bind up in the sand and liverock.
Correct, no sand bed processes phosphates. You can not possibly remove all phosphate from a tank. And your do not need to or would you want to, phosphorus is required for life. Its also being produced on a constant basis. Microfuana can not starve itself out from lack of phosphate because its simple not possible.

Also phosphate only bind to sand and rock in quite excessive amounts. This is what causes many DSB's to crash. DSB's can be very misleading and most dont understand how to take care of them.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/chemistry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

Again, good clarification, but need for others to understand your point. However, to say that the effect is null is completely inaccurate. The fact is that siphoning of that portion of the sandbed depletes the microfauna severely and it has to reseed from the unsiphoned half of the sandbed. This is in fact why only once or twice a year siphonings are recommended no?
No. yes it will rid of a small amount of microfuana. The problem with a complete siphoning often is the disturbance of the anaerobic and anoxic zones preventing denitrification. These zones must be low and devoid of oxygen.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

In regards to the three zones, can you please clarify your position on this. Anoxic by definition means without oxygen, the same as anaerobic, so I'm curious to see on what basis you are trying to seperate the oxygen depleted layer into two seperate layers.
anaerobic is low oxygen. It is impossible to go from oxygen to no oxygen. Anaerobic is the in-between.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

True enough, however a DSB can be properly maintained without siphoning. It can be done with the regular reintroduction of the proper microfauna which burrows and tunnels its way through the DSB maintaining the functionality of the DSB by doing so. That is not maintainance free. You are quite correct in your assertion that a DSB needs to be maintained. However you are incorrect in that the only way to do so properly is by siphoning. There is always more than one way to do things properly in this hobby.
False, again microfuana do not process phosphates. I do agree there is more than one way of doing things properly. However the phosphate issue of not siphoning hasnt been addressed.

Excessive phosphate will result in the binding to sand and live rock and also will only be solvable with the entire sand bed being replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

Actually some recent research would tend to disagree with you. Some studies I've seen indicate that phosphate binds into the sand and LR even with a properly maintained aquarium and sandbed. I fully understand why phosphate is not a problem with a properly maintained fully funtioning system. I believe that part of our differences here is in term of how you and I are defining maintained. You appear to be trying to assert that there is only one proper way to maintain a sandbed and I am simply disagreeing with you.
Disagreement is fine, and i dont mind discussion. I would like to know how you properly maintain a DSB then. Wondering where your phosphate is going then.

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Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

I never proposed any such thing. I proposed the addition of a source of algae as a solution to the removal of phosphates. Which without the actual removal of that algae from time to time is also not effective, as algae binds but does not remove phosphates. I'm not proposing a left along DSB at all, I'm simply stating that a DSB can properly be maintained without siphoning..
If by algae you are referring to Macro algaes in a refugium then yes they will 'help' remove phosphate but in no way do they remove it from a DSB. These anoxic zones are free from oxygen, a refugium will only slowly deal with free floating inorganic orthophosphate. However they do nothing for Organic phosphates trapped in the sand bed.

Also would you not agree siphoning to be the simplest, economical and most proficient way of removing all forms of phosphates and organic matter from a system/sand bed.

A DSB was originally contrived to be a fix or system of dealing with nitrate removal. Adding an algae tank to deal with the DSB sound like your fixing fixes now, instead of the problem? Agree?
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:42 PM   #22
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All I got out of it was blah, blah, blah, and more blah! Did you guys have your dictionaries out or what?! If your sandbed Is dirty clean it. How's that for clarification? Not trying to be a smarta@* or anything but that was hilarious.
Great place to learn something. And for many people "its dirty, clean it" is not a simple answer lol. Ive seen these discussions get way more elaborate than this.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:51 PM   #23
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Read every bit and yes did learn a thing or two. Just felt a little tension in the air. Nothing like a good laugh to lighten people up
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:00 PM   #24
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Read every bit and yes did learn a thing or two. Just felt a little tension in the air. Nothing like a good laugh to lighten people up
No tension here, i could talk about these things forever if i had the time. Different opinions and experiences are great, it what makes people learn and what makes you really think.

Being proven wrong means i learn something new. Never a bad thing, and that goes for anyone. No tank is the same and many topics like this can be dependent on routine and setup, often very opinionated.

Ive never been a DSB hater and ive maintained a couple DSB's. They are a method of filtration, and as most know, all filters need cleaned.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:20 PM   #25
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I read every single post. All I can say is........ +1 schism!!!!!
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:19 PM   #26
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Ok, is 2" considered a deep sand bed? Because that's what I have and I don't mess with it. I thought I was supposed to leave it alone. How do you siphon a sand bed? Or how do you maintain it.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by FlopNewsom
Ok, is 2" considered a deep sand bed? Because that's what I have and I don't mess with it. I thought I was supposed to leave it alone. How do you siphon a sand bed? Or how do you maintain it.
No 2" is not a deep sand bed. Siphoning a sand bed requires a "gravel vac" purchased at any fish store. The size of siphon and tubing you need depend on grain size of your sand. Smaller grain, smaller tubing.

With fine grain sand, i recommend a longer siphon tube with about a 3/8" hose. Bury the siphon into the sand and allow it to suck up the sand to the top of the tube. When it gets to the top pinch the line and the sand will fall and tumble. This will break up the sand particles an free detritus. As its falling apply and release flow by pinching the tubing to allowing you to separate the sand from detritus and allow the sand to fall back down. Its a little difficult to explain but im sure you could find a youtube video.

Maybe ill have to make one. Dunno
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:09 AM   #28
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I made a rake out of a plastic coat hanger and hot glue that attaches to siphon so sand don't get all sucked up just the crud (AKA POO) looks kind of like this
the red under siphon is a void between rake and siphon to keep from sucking up all the sand
works great

my art skills are lacking a bit but you'll get idea
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:13 AM   #29
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I made a rake out of a plastic coat hanger and hot glue that attaches to siphon so sand don't get all sucked up just the crud (AKA POO) looks kind of like this
the red under siphon is a void between rake and siphon
works great

my art skills are lacking a bit but you'll get idea
Amazing idea! However im unsure of putting anything with hot glue on it in a reef tank. I may just try gel super glue, and see how it works.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:53 AM   #30
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Sorry for not clarifying, I just always have the time to write long posts and explanations like these and i try to keep it basic, but this is far from a basic subject. Ill respond when i get a chance to sit down.
Not a problem. Educated debate is great for the learning process, and as you pointed out, this is hardly a basic topic. Sorry for the delay in my response, but I was on the road this evening, so was unable to follow the thread.

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All I got out of it was blah, blah, blah, and more blah! Did you guys have your dictionaries out or what?! If your sandbed Is dirty clean it. How's that for clarification? Not trying to be a smarta@* or anything but that was hilarious.
Sorry about that, stick around and do some research and a few of those blahs may start taking on some meaning. After all isn't that what the boards are all about? Providing an opportunity for all of us to learn and discuss?
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