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Old 05-27-2013, 01:57 AM   #151
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The electrolysis effect (the lemon battery trick) requires two dissimilar metals to create a electrical flow in a acid (lemon juice). No dissimilar metals, no flow of electrons. Also saltwater is not acidic, but the salt ions cause it to be fairly conductive. Some of this may be just meter halucinations. I do know my two wire power heads and my ph probe create the most stray voltage when measuring tank water to electrical house ground.. I figure if the GFI doesn't trip, I'm okay.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:25 PM   #152
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The electrolysis effect (the lemon battery trick) requires two dissimilar metals to create a electrical flow in a acid (lemon juice). No dissimilar metals, no flow of electrons. Also saltwater is not acidic, but the salt ions cause it to be fairly conductive. Some of this may be just meter halucinations. I do know my two wire power heads and my ph probe create the most stray voltage when measuring tank water to electrical house ground.. I figure if the GFI doesn't trip, I'm okay.
Those are another good example of STATIC ELECTRICITY and they are DIRECT CURRENT. In our salt water tank, we are dealing with ALTERNATING CURRENT. You cannot store an AC power and be considered as static. In fact the source is considered as DYNAMIC which is coming from the power generator continuously available with constant voltage. In a transformer the current has an inverse proportion to the number of turns of the coil. Meaning the less turns, the higher the current. In a salt water tank, if one believes that the power head transfer the voltage to the water, then the water surrounding the power head is considered to be just 1 turn. This 1 turn has almost no resistance or close to zero. In Ohm’s law, that 28 vac flowing through a load with no resistance would have been like an electric welding producing lots of sparks. Obviously, this is not the case. The water enclosing a power head with motor actually acts as one solid shield preventing any induction to come out. The experiment I previously suggested, where we have a small container which is totally isolated from the power head and we only submerge the electrical cord into the small container and yet we get that stray voltage in the water inside the said container. It is a direct proof that the voltage is passing through the plastic cord insulation and through the water. The Ground Probe connects the water to ground so we have 0 volts but that 28 vac does not disappear. It is transferred to the electrical insulation with a very high resistance (approx 3 mega ohms). The current flowing through the insulation passing to the water and to the ground is very very minimal (Current=120vac/3,000,000 ohms). That equates to 0.04 mA.
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:47 PM   #153
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Here is the explanation to your readings.
You are in Canada and I believe you have a 240 vac power source to your home. The transformer outside your home is in Delta to Delta (480 to 240). That means the 2 wires on your power cord are both hot with respect to ground. Unlike in the US, we have only one side being hot. In your case, when you turn off the switch, the other wire is still hot and that is where your stray voltage is coming from. You have to unplug your power strip from the wall receptacle to isolate your power from the tank.


you are wrong, we have the same residential voltage you have pal. single phase240v. 120v phase to neutral 240v phase to phase . our commercial lighting 3 phase is 600v, 347v phase to neutral, 600v phase to phase. unlike the USA which uses 480v phase to phase and 277v phase to neutral.

having said that if it was a delta supply type transformer the eddie currents pushed through the cabl insulation would be cancelled out rendering a test useless, the same way a balanced neutral cancels out the amperage, and why you can't run a lone live conductor in a raceway without a neutral or another wire of the single or 3 phase system to cancel out the sheath current and why all cords, BX, romex, pyro, tech all come with a two wire minimum configuration unless they are large single conductor cables used to run 3phase systems, and then they require non ferous cable trays, clips and a fiber plate on one end and none ferous aluminum plate on the other end so that the sheath currents cannot cause a hot spot in the cable from a counter current cause by an induced voltage on a ferous material like steet or iron

i said it in previous threads i'm an electrician. i know the difference in voltages and supply types. i know the practical and hands on side better then you do, so please don't tell me i'm testing wrong or the voltage i'm testing on is something totally different then it is.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #154
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Actually, there is a residential aspect to 3 phase 208V 'Y' supply. Each leg to neutral provides 120v single phase as per the norm. A single apartment/condo unit will only have one leg available to the residence. For heating and plumbing loads (i.e. water booster pumps to the higher floors) pumps can run on the 3 phase or a single cross connection 208V (no neutral). BUT, there is no 240V available as per standard 240V 2 phase supplies. No 240V for dryers or stoves.

Canada does supply much of the electrical power to the US in many parts of the country, and we are all on the same greater grid (remember the big Eastern blackout a few years back), but there are some coding differences, but that has to do only with colour coding.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:46 PM   #155
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I love it when electricians argue. My approach was to confirm that a ground probe in the tank isn't necessary and in some cases could make the problem of stray voltages worse. ???
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:12 PM   #156
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I love it when electricians argue. My approach was to confirm that a ground probe in the tank isn't necessary and in some cases could make the problem of stray voltages worse. ???
and i'm agreeing with that lol

greg i get eletrical engineers are more knowledgable then we are, in theory but when it comes down to alot of the hands on things and practical knowledge, things just whip right over their heads. in a case like this where we are dealign with a low amperage low voltage AC current concepts liek di eletric resistance of a cable insulation have a minimal to null bearign on things. now if we were talkign abotu high current and high voltage then things get more complicated, but a .25 amps at 120v, like come on lol
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:21 PM   #157
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Actually, there is a residential aspect to 3 phase 208V 'Y' supply. Each leg to neutral provides 120v single phase as per the norm. A single apartment/condo unit will only have one leg available to the residence. For heating and plumbing loads (i.e. water booster pumps to the higher floors) pumps can run on the 3 phase or a single cross connection 208V (no neutral). BUT, there is no 240V available as per standard 240V 2 phase supplies. No 240V for dryers or stoves.

Canada does supply much of the electrical power to the US in many parts of the country, and we are all on the same greater grid (remember the big Eastern blackout a few years back), but there are some coding differences, but that has to do only with colour coding.

we use 3 phase in condos also but thats not the residential supply i'm talkign about i'm talkig nabout neighborhood homes, condos/apartments are not really totally different and while they are 3phase supply loads, two phases and a neutral ar brought to each condo/apratment panel, so it is 120/208v single phase. 3 phase only supplys out of unit power liek halls ways and or high load units like roof tops or boiler pumps etc.last condo i did was a 600v wye main supply service which branched off to supply 3 different load centers and transformers, for condo units. the whole buildign was 103 condos and were feed from a 450kva transformer, with 600 delta supply and a 120/208 wye load side which branced off to three different panels that feed each individule suite with 100 amp 120/208 single phase panels

our color coding is still the same for 120/208v red black blue and white, we have the option for our 347/600v to use the same codign or use yellow orange brown and grey for the neutral (which no one ever uses besides for switch legs) the cost of the wire since its not comonly used outside of control wiring is to high for most people to use

but canada supplies most of the world with natural resources, lumber, oil, minerals, metals, freshwater. we just don't have the man power to refine these resources so we sell it export it out and import the materials. if we had the labor force we could shut ourselves off and live off ourselves for centuries

PS: wye type :P (just had to be a smart a**)
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:46 PM   #158
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I love it when electricians argue. My approach was to confirm that a ground probe in the tank isn't necessary and in some cases could make the problem of stray voltages worse. ???
We know that salt water has a very high conductivity (almost 0 ohms). While the fish has much higher resistance compared to the salt water. My question is, where do you think the current will flow? Regardless wither you have the Ground Probe or not, it will not harm the fish. I have it since day one cause I'm not fond of the tingling sensation when working in my tank. A GFCI is recommended and I do have it also. Some people will not use it because they are concerned that it might trip when they are not around. Well I will tell you what, it will NEVER trip as long as you remove that Ground Probe when you are away.
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Old 05-27-2013, 08:48 PM   #159
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My speciality is pretty exotic. I can wire a server cabinet, but thats about it. The stray voltage thing is still being explained on multiple threads across multiple reef web sites. It is an interesting conversation.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:27 PM   #160
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We know that salt water has a very high conductivity (almost 0 ohms). While the fish has much higher resistance compared to the salt water. My question is, where do you think the current will flow? Regardless wither you have the Ground Probe or not, it will not harm the fish. I have it since day one cause I'm not fond of the tingling sensation when working in my tank. A GFCI is recommended and I do have it also. Some people will not use it because they are concerned that it might trip when they are not around. Well I will tell you what, it will never trip as long as you remove that Ground Probe when you are away.

the fish have a higher resistive value sure but when the current is flowing through the water its still flowign through them because they are part of the water, the same reason why if we are standign in water and get shocked the potential for death is VERY high. the current will travel everywhere in the water which is why water and electricity don't mix. if there is a short in the tank, kiss your aquarium goodbye, all bacteria all live stock, gone. there was an episode of LA fishguy were jim had a glass heater break and short out (in the sump) and wiped out the whole system. the current will flow through the water in the return and in the drains, if there is a conecting path it'l follow it. just think of a wire, it'll follow the path, more current will take the path of least resistance back to the source but it'll still flow all over the place and will make your like a living hell. GFI which trips at 5milliamps will minimize the death but if no GFI then you're looking at a short circuit current of 10000 in one second flowign through that system, and that sir will fry anything and anyone in contact with the water.


a tingling feelign you say, i find that hard to believe but who am i to say. if you're gettign a shock from the water a grounding probe will cause more issues and you would know it as a shock because it'll be more then a tingle
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