This is disturbing.

[michealprater]

please read this thread and post your thoughts, if you are a member of Reefcentral please reply to the post. This is a guy who is only in it for the money. It is discusting.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1050018#post1050018

 

[reefrunner69]

I looked at it, I feel it was posted in the wrong forum, but I also feel the guy was pretty well descriptive of the fact that they were harvested...through the entire thread. As for being in it for the money....he probabaly is. But there is not necessarily anything wrong with that. The question is, will he put his needs over yours for the money, I thought he showed that it was important for his cusomers to be happy with their purchase. Like I said, from what I see he posted in the wrong forum.

 

[michealprater]

If it is that easy to just go harvest them, why dont you go try? Maybe you could hook some of us up.

 

[reefrunner69]

I am in N Florida, he is in S Florida, the zoos are in his backyard, it would be several hours drive for me to get there. I am also at a point in my hobby where I prefer to have actual captive raised frags whenever possible. I do not yet feel it should be illegal for recreational harvesting...but I'm not interested in it. I want to go swim the reef but I want to leave it as I found it

 

[michealprater]

Well,I would not consider this guys actions recreational harvesting. He is just rippin in there to make a buck and thats it. Just ask him, he will tell you. This is all the more reason we should support places like www.logicalreef.com.

 

[Hara]

As long as people buy, there are those that will harvest. I like to ride the moral pony too, but the fact is, if there was a fish I wanted, I would buy it, if there were a coral, I would buy it, even if it were wild harvested. I do search for captive bred and when I find such specimens, I don't mind paying extra. As soon as everything we desire is captive bred, it will be a different story. I am afraid that those days are a long way off.

Can you honestly say that everything in your tank is captive bred? I sure can't. I try to not be hypocritical about it, so I do not reply to posts such as his. Until I have nothing wild caught in my tanks, I feel I am a hypocrit by saying something.
Dont get me wrong, not calling you hypocritical, just professing my moral views on things.

 

[michealprater]

All my fish are captive bred, not sure about my corals. I would like to ask you a question thought. To me this is not about having wild caught things. If someone obtains a harvesting licence, it is my understanding they can only take so much in a period of time. However, do you feel it is right for this guy to just pillage the area he goes to just so he can make a buck? I mean he said that he just walks out there and steps on zoos. I have heard from several people now that I have gotten into this issue that he does burn a lot of people. He is not about good customer service. This guy is accually giving the people who do captive breed things a bad name. I think it is dispicable and I hope people find out about him and no longer purchase from him. :x

 

[Hara]

If the guy is able to do this, then it is the laws that must be changed and the ability to enforce them. There are many companies with harvesting licenses that I would not buy a single crab from. Also, those with import licenses. A license does not mean that harvesting will be done in a concientous manner, only that they will be less likely to be observed. I read his comments to be ones of sarcasm in response to what he most likely felt was persecution. I do not see how he is giving people that are conscientiously breeding a bad name. Also, if he continues to ream people financially, it will be its own reward or punishment.

Please understand that I am an animal advocate in every sense of the word. I have been involved in more rescue projects than you can imagine. The one thing I have learned is that getting verbally involved in places like forums, will never do any good. Education, not persection, is the answer. You did well by giving an alternative purchase source.

Will I ever buy from him? no. Will others? yes.

 

[michealprater]

I appreciate the way you have conveyed your opinion and you make very good points, thanks Hara. I guess the bottom line is, I agree with you, I will not buy from him. I guess that is the worst thing I can do to him.

 

[loganj]

I have to say that this guy doesn't seem to care much about whether he causes a problem by collecting the zoos. I think captive raised is the way to go if possible. Even though captive costs more, it has, IMO, a better chance of survival. The only way we can really enforce this is not to buy wild caught when captive is available. If you can't get it captive raised, then there isn't a lot of choice. Of course, you can always propagate your wild caught specimen and sell/trade the offspring to others. Then you are making a real contribution to taking the pressure off the reefs. JMHO .
Logan J

 

[Guest]

There are many companies with harvesting licenses that I would not buy a single crab from.

Not to step on your toes, but, where did you get your live rock from????

I mean it seems so contradictory in terms...Damned if you do damned if you don't...

 

[michealprater]

I would just like to go on the record and say that this post was not about tank raised vs. wild caught. It was about a certain individuals actions. Hara said that he was probably being sarcastic. After she said that, I realized he problably was. I have stated my opinions on tank raised vs. wild caught in other threads.

 

[Guest]

My point is, you can't pick and choose...you are either one way or you aren't and if you preach save the reefs, Practice it fully. Stop buying some things that are not propagated and some that are...and saying you are saving reefs ... That is contradicting in terms.

I look at it this way:

Homemade LR
Propagated Corals
TR Anenomes if any,
TR Clowns or any of the very few that can be TR

Then you can say " I " am saving the reefs by choosing not to buy commercially available wild caught specimens...

Otherwise it is all a bunch of words meant to strike up Tank Raised vs Wild Caught every time...

This is only my opinion and not the opinion of a whole.... Sorry for any bad feelings this might have sprung up... :|

 

[loganj]

Well...I think that sums it up very well. Also, it is true, you can't start on a topic like this without eventually getting into the TR vs WC discussion...it's inevitable.
Logan J

 

[fishfreek]

One item to note.

When you purchase your live rock unless its illegally collected its more than likly comming from a leased plot of ocean bottom that was totally void of life. The company that is leasing this plot goes out and buys TONS of rock and has it barged out to that plot and dumped into the ocean.

Years later they come back and what has developed is a natural artifical reef. This rock is what is being sold. Its not comming from the wild natural reefs but comming from leased plots of ocean bottom that has had rock placed there for the exclusive purpose of selling to hobbists.

 

[michealprater]

I will never look down on someone for posting their honest opinion. I appreciate you guys being civil. I do have to say that I am done posting on this thread. I think what the guy on reefcentral is doing is wrong, not just because of the way he does it, but because he has burned several people. He just straight up ripped some people off and does not really care. Therefore this gives legit coral propagating online retailers a bad name. People will say " I purchased from this guy and he did me wrong, I wont be buying anything off the internet anymore." That is my opinion plain and simple. I doubt there is anything that can be done to change it. Not that I am stubborn, because you guys have probably all seen me change my opinion when a very good case was presented to me. If you guys feel what he is doing is right, thats your opinion, if you purchase from him, let me know how it turns out. And with that, I am done with this subject. Kudos to you guys for your opinions.

 

[Hara]

My point is, you can't pick and choose...you are either one way or you aren't and if you preach save the reefs, Practice it fully. Stop buying some things that are not propagated and some that are...and saying you are saving reefs ... That is contradicting in terms.
Otherwise it is all a bunch of words meant to strike up Tank Raised vs Wild Caught every time...
This is only my opinion and not the opinion of a whole.... Sorry for any bad feelings this might have sprung up... :|

I think you may be a little confused. You quoted me and yet in my first post I pretty much said I will get what I want from where I can get it, if CB is available, I will choose that source, if not, oh well. There is very little in my reef tank that is CB...(and TR is only one step away from WC)

My seahorse tank is all CB, why? because the survival rate is much higher, and I dont like throwing away my money. Also, there is the situation of endangered species vs a species that is quite numerous. Many factors are involved. It is not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.
In a perfect world................

 

[clownfish]

Just a quick point on the above quote. And it should be noted that I'm not exactly sure if I'm agreeing with Hara or not, but ...

I think you absolutely can go both ways and think there are many of us in the hobby that do go both ways. We strive to limit the impact on the environment as much as we can and still enjoy the hobby.

I for one will always seek out CB when possible. In addition to better survival rates, which help me, the fish and the evironment (since I don't need to replace as often), I also feel better knowing I have not impacted a wild habitat. However, I will not say that nothing in my tank will ever be WC. I may choose to get a fish that is not available CB and will have to WC, because I want to. However, by supporting LFS and suppliers that follow appropriate guidelines and laws and harvest in a responsible manner we are least lessening the negative impact. This is my opinion and the way I choose to practice the hobby.

WE IMPACT THE PLANET. There is no way around it. If we lessen it and be responsible, it's helpful.