Water Runs Uphill?

[AngelFishFan]

Would It Be Possible To Run The Tubing From My Aquarium Through A Wall Behind It And Then Down To The Basement For My Filtration Tank? I thought this would be an excellent idea for avoiding all of the noises for the undertank filter! Suggestions? Experiences? Ideas? Anything to help! Thanks All In Advance!

 

[riptide]

Be aware of the head pressure you will create on the return lines that your pumps will have to fight.... Also be very cautious of the velocity you will create in the fluid dropping so far to your filtration sumps....

 

[ohio reefer]

sounds like a great idea, but you would need a HUGE pump to return from sump. then you run the risk of aqaurium life damage from the force of the return water. keep us tuned in though, i would like to see how it works

mark

 

[AngelFishFan]

Luckily, I work at a Local Water Garden Store, And get 30% discount off of everything there, including Large sump pumps, AND smaller pumps, anywhere from 40 gph to 5000 gph.. you name it.. I have it. So That will come in handy! This is my only concern: What happens if I lose power? Do i have an automatic shut off valve? I dont want that water to keep flowing downstairs, and losing all of that water, along with threatening my fish's very exsistence.Would a wet/dry filter be able to take that pressure, from 7 feet above? This is complicated, But i believe the outcome will be incredible. And EASIER To clean, along with being able to hook up an automatic top off inside of the filter unit downstairs to pump upstairs again. Also, should something leak in the filter, the basement over flow would take care of that! Keep the ideas and suggestions comming! Thanks everyone!

 

[ferret]

I've read in the past of someone doing something similar. Only he built up a 4 foot stand underneathe the sump in the basement to make the distance shorter.

 

[fishfreek]

How far up hill does the water have to run? When you say uphill do you mean from the tank thru the wall until it finally turns and falls down to the basement or do you mean from the basement to your tank?

As was described the head pressure is the big thing when sizing your pump. be cautious about the pumps from the water garden store in that they need to be rated for saltwater use. Pumps with metalic imeller shafts will cause you problems as they will rust, etc due to the saltwater. There are many saltwater designed pumps that will be able to use for this purpose.

Incase of power failure you will need to incorprorate a few items. First would be some syphon breaks on your sump return lines. This will allow air to get into the return lines and break any back syphon. But then you will have to deal with the water thats in the plumbing. Installing one or more one way flap valves should help you there in that they will thru normal operation allow water to flow only one way. When the power goes out the water will try to flow down to the basement and the one way valve will stop it. Incase that fails then you should hav some way of storing the excess water thats in the plumbing. Depending on the distance ths could be just a few gal or it could be several gal.

7 feet is not much head and you should have little problem finding a pump that can put out the GPH that you want at 7' head. Makers of pumps will have charts on the pumps or the box's telling you what they are rated for at a given height. To baffle the water comming from 7' up you might want to introduce some creative plumbing to keep the drain lines from splashing all over the place.

ReefLady has the exact setup your talking about doing. Ill try to attract her attention to this post.

Also you might be better off with two pumps than one megga pump.

 

[ohio reefer]

wet-dry will work fine make sure you have the water diffuser and a a strong lid (so it doesn't splash out).

you can also put a small overflow sump under your tank, or you can put a small hole in your u-tube (if you have one) make sure the hole is below the water line, just a little bit , so if the level goes down it will cause air to go in and stop flow.

HTH

mark

 

[fishfreek]

or you can put a small hole in your u-tube

When you refer to U tube are you talking about the tube in the overflow or the return line from the sump to the tank?

I would not avocate putting a hole in the overflow u tube as this will cause problem in the event of a power failure since the overflow will not start back up properly.

 

[AngelFishFan]

I could probably pump the water back up to a couple of spray bars, to lessen the amount of flow to just one direction, so I could not put the fish through such a trauma of so much flow in just a 90 gallon

 

[fishfreek]

In my view the concern is not from having some huge jet of water in the tank. Most large pumps use 1" plumbing and even 1500GPH comming out the end of a 1" pipe while its alot of water it had alot less force than the the same amount of water comming out of lets say a 1/2" pipe.

What you can do is split the return into two or three outlets and have them dump water into the tank from opposite sides of the tank. Remember our fish have the reef as their natural home and the currents in our tank are fairly weak in compairson to the currents in the wild reef.

For your tank you will probably want to aim at 900-1400GPH flow rate at the tank height. What this means is you will probably have to have a 2000GPH or greater pump at the sump height to counter the effect of pushing water up aganst graveity.

Once again verify flow rates and maximum head height with the pump manufactuer.

If your tank uses hang on overflows also make sure you dont have more water going into the tank than the overflows can drain.

 

[AngelFishFan]

Can you adjust the overflows to allow only a certain amount of water to go to the sump? Perhaps a ball valve? both going outbound and coming inbound to the tank.What is the best company that you like that makes overflows? Or do you just like the wet/dry filter kits for the type of application that I am doing? I am going to do a mini-reef.Thanks

 

[fishfreek]

there is a maximum that an overflow will be able to drain out of the tank. This is usually govern by the number of U tubes used. I like www.livereef.com for overflows of the U tube variety. You can also find good arylic U tube overflows on ebay.

I have the double overflow box from lifereef and its rated for 1400GPH. Their standard overflow is rated at 700GPH. Overall the overflow will only drain as much water as the pump is putting into the tank. This will hold true until the pump starts putting more water into the tank than the overflow can process.

 

[AngelFishFan]

So it would be wise to put a ball valve on the outgo of the pump (tube back to the aquarium) To only allow as much water as can be processed at a certain time and adjust it as needed?

 

[fishfreek]

I would just balance the return with the drains by making sure the pump was not more powerful than the drain lines at that given head height.

Puting a restriction on the return can cause undue stress on the pump and some pumps are not rated very well with pressure.

 

[ReefLady]

AngelFishFan,

It's definitely do-able -- we do it ourselves. I find a few benefits to having our sump/plumbing in the basement - not only noise prevention, but no more messy water changes in the livingroom, and also, it helps cool the water in the summer.

For starters, take a peek at >>our sump page<<

In a nutshell, our sump sits about 10' directly below the display tank in our basement. We use a Sequence 3500 SEQ21-SW pump (it is considered a "pond" pump, but the "SW" designation is for saltwater fittings - you're going to want those). This pump pumps about 2200gph at our head height.

What happens if I lose power?

Our simple solution is this. We don't use overflows - the tank is drilled - 3 bulkheads/strainers a couple inches down from the surface of the water. So, if the power goes out, it can only drain down to the level of the bulkheads. Simply make sure to leave enough *space* in your sump for the room for this extra water.

Would a wet/dry filter be able to take that pressure, from 7 feet above?

No clue about wet/dry's, sorry.

As was described the head pressure is the big thing when sizing your pump. be cautious about the pumps from the water garden store in that they need to be rated for saltwater use.

Excellent points. Also make sure the pumps are rated for the head height you want to use them for.

But then you will have to deal with the water thats in the plumbing. Installing one or more one way flap valves should help you there in that they will thru normal operation allow water to flow only one way. When the power goes out the water will try to flow down to the basement and the one way valve will stop it.

Hehe - it does sound good, but we don't do any of that.

Also you might be better off with two pumps than one megga pump.

If I had to do it all over again .... I would use a smaller pump for the return pump, and put a closed loop on the display tank.

In my view the concern is not from having some huge jet of water in the tank. Most large pumps use 1" plumbing and even 1500GPH comming out the end of a 1" pipe while its alot of water it had alot less force than the the same amount of water comming out of lets say a 1/2" pipe.

We do get good water circulation, but we definitely don't have any issues with the force of the returned water.

What you can do is split the return into two or three outlets and have them dump water into the tank from opposite sides of the tank.

This is what we do. One return line up goes to a three-way "wye" beneath the tank, which splits into three different returns - this pic is from underneath the display cabinet upstairs:

If you have any questions at all, just yell.

I would just balance the return with the drains by making sure the pump was not more powerful than the drain lines at that given head height.

Puting a restriction on the return can cause undue stress on the pump and some pumps are not rated very well with pressure.

Definitely true. We did a lot of research when we first set things up this way, and found that you don't want to restrict pump output. It can lead to overheating and pump failure.

HTH,

 

[AngelFishFan]

very, VERY impressive! I am quite astounded that someone would do this for a home setup. Kudos to you!

 

[fishfreek]

I thought RL might be able to help ya at least in giving you an image of what you could do.

Personally in my book if you use U tube overflows the risk of them losing syphon is not that great as the U tube itself should not get air into it during the power outage and the syphon will start up again. CPR overflows on the other hand need the assistance of a PH.

 

[AngelFishFan]

One more question.... PVC? or Flexible Corrugated? I sell the latter at work, but I think PVC will be easier to work with. Opinions? Thanks a bunch guys (and girls)!

 

[justDIY]

I've read a lot about something called "SpaFlex" flexible PVC and I'm very intrigued by it's claims to work with all hard pvc fittings but still be flexible.

maybe it'd be good to mix and match, hard pvc for as many long / straight runs and flexi for making zigs and zags... rather than messing with 22.5° and 45° elbows and very short pieces of hard pipe.

 

[AngelFishFan]

Thanks for the input! Im sure that I will look into it (SpaFlex)! That would be greatly helpful, rather than fooling with the degrees.