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Old 01-12-2004, 03:24 PM   #11
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I agree 100% James. You would not belive the amount of anemones that my 2 LFS's sell and I"m sure 99% of them die because people have no idea how to care for them. The store employees even have no idea how to care for them, that's why I don't think I'd ever buy one from my LFS, I would feel much safer with a specimen from a trusted mailover company such as liveaquaria. This is of course after I spend the next 2,000 hours reading up on them
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Old 01-12-2004, 04:08 PM   #12
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I disagree 100%. Collection, shipping, and aquarists are all in equal blame. In fact, it is the aquarists who create the demand for anemones, and ultimately their collection and transport.

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It is not the mainly the aquarist that is killing them off.. Most of the issues lies with collection and transportation..A major majority is that Most LFS stores will sell an Anemone to anyone no matter lighting or age of the tank
The LFS is not responsible for educating the aquarist. It is our own responsibility to properly care for what we want to purchase. That is passing the blame.

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If we aquarists research and do our part 110% to care for a creature that we have purchased the only thing that should cause these to die are the sole fact of Collection/transportation methods
What about not understanding the correct husbandry? Simply adding sufficient lighting is not the only key factor here, MH lighting has been available long enough and still the survival rates are dismal. The truth is that for many species we do not understand their exact requirements good enough yet. Effort is not always capable of providing needs.

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With technology different now then when that study was made there are many that are able to keep anemones long term... Back then when those studies were produced MH lights were only for the SERIOUS ppl such as zoos, Ect... If they were to rerun those studies there would be completely different results.
How so? The article is dated 7/9/03 and the tests by Joyce Wilkerson were supposedly done recent to that. From the dismal survival records, the Breeders Registry was prompted to do a survey of 137 successful anemones to try and find out information that so many others are missing.

http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca....veyresults.htm

According to the article, they found no breakthroughs showing that we don't yet have a true understanding....just relative information.

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I reasearched mine for about 6 months prior to getting one.. It has stayed alive and Thriving for 1 month already Wooo Hooo..
Congratulations (and crossed fingers for it to continue thriving), but this has little to do with long term survival. Many aquarists are achieving short term "success", only to have them die within a year or so. It is also not comparable to use your possible "success" as being indicative of the results across the hobby.

I will agree though that we are getting better (and much of that is due to people researching properly like yourself!), but IMO opinion we as a hobby are still painfully far away from being successful at keeping anemones. As individuals, some are having great succes....but as a whole I have little doubt that the vast majority are still dying.
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Old 01-12-2004, 04:27 PM   #13
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I purchased an anenome towards the end of June with great success. The first week was pretty tense. First it started peeling, then it disappeared. I though it was a goner. I found that it had buried itself under the crushed coral and was only coming out at night. Now my anenome hangs out all day and has pretty much planted itself in one spot. My clownfish loves it. In fact sometimes I think my clownfish annoys it. It has been six months and it seems healthy. I wish I could tell you what kind of anenome it is.

BTW I have a coralife 4x65 PC lighting unit.
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Old 01-12-2004, 04:33 PM   #14
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The LFS is not responsible for educating the aquarist. It is our own responsibility to properly care for what we want to purchase. That is passing the blame.
I agree with this but any GOOD LFS will inquire about tank specs prior to selling one to an Individual.. IMO if they do not then it is not a GOOD LFS to deal with..

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What about not understanding the correct husbandry? Simply adding sufficient lighting is not the only key factor here, MH lighting has been available long enough and still the survival rates are dismal. The truth is that for many species we do not understand their exact requirements good enough yet. Effort is not always capable of providing needs.
AS it was stated to me when I got mine.. I was told and have been told many times to make sure that I feed the carpet 2 or 3 times a day.. Advisors/Ect.. I researched on this and Found that feeding them directly is one of the major reasons they die in captivity.. Its true that we do not know enough about them but will we ever? I mean take something like the Elegance coral.. easy to care for and very hardy in the past.. now your lucky if you can keep one past a month...
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How so? The article is dated 7/9/03 and the tests by Joyce Wilkerson were supposedly done recent to that.
the articles was a recent article however the tests are old... If I remember correctly when I was researching the actual testing was done in 2000 I believe... But I read many articles and success stories so I could be incorrect about the date.. With each day we are learning something new about them..
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Congratulations, but this has little to do with long term survival. Many aquarists are achieving short term "success", only to have them die within a year or so. It is also not comparable to use your possible "success" as being indicative of the results across the hobby.
Well thanks but I was not referring to mine as an example for long term survival.. If we stop the import and sale of all wild anemones as the article stated then there is going to be more of inhumane methods of collection thru illegal methods... Its kinda like a kid when you tell them no They have to find out why...

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but IMO opinion we as a hobby are still painfully far away from being successful at keeping anemones. As individuals, some are having great succes....but as a whole I have little doubt that the vast majority are still dying.
There are still many many aquarists that think that having a clownfish requires having an Anemone.. There is many LFS that you go to buy a Clown and Their money drive kicks in and they state well to make that clown happy you are going to need an anemone.. Here buy this 70-$80.00 anemone and everything should be fine... At one LFS around here in particular sells many anemones and they suggest that if you buy a clown that you should get one too... Marinedepotlive.com is guilty of this as well... If you look under their True Perculas it states that an Anemone is a must for keeping this fish... Money to most LFS out weighs the death of any creature... It is written off as well if you knew about SW enough to start one then you should have known better... I am not passing the blame to the LFS I am however stating that Most LFS employess make min. Wage and know nothing - very little about fish.. For example a "SW specialist" for a major retailer told me not to ever QT fish as if the tank is ok and cycled you will not have a problem with Disease.. Laff.... there are many many ppl out there that do not use the internet for information and solely rely on the LFS as they should know about something they sell.. Any good LFS employee will know about the Fish/coral that they are selling.. These are mainly found where the Owner is the employee..

James
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:19 PM   #15
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I suppose I just don't get your point James. Even though we may be learning more each day, this does not mean that the survival rates are much better as you claimed.

It's tit for tat to place blame, the bottom line is that the clear husbandry requirements for keeping anemones are unknown. You will still find a deep divide between "experts" as to the importance of food, lighting, and the combination thereof. With the the test done in 2000 and the link I provide from 2003 show no signs that keeping anemones in captivity is that much more successful. It is also untrue to claim that in 2000 (or close)MH lighting was only available to zoos, etc as it was widely used in the hobby.

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Its true that we do not know enough about them but will we ever? I mean take something like the Elegance coral.. easy to care for and very hardy in the past.. now your lucky if you can keep one past a month...
I would think that is a solid possibility, we have already gotten close for several (E. quad most notably, and some carpet species)...and have achieved this already with many, many corals and fish. Until the numbers improve though from the inarguably dismal numbers, most species should be left in the ocean.

It is incorrect to compare this with elegance corals, as it is not the same circumstances. The issue with the elegance is that they are now being harvested from a different area on the reef thus the care requirements are not the same, nor understood.

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Well thanks but I was not referring to mine as an example for long term survival.. If we stop the import and sale of all wild anemones as the article stated then there is going to be more of inhumane methods of collection thru illegal methods... Its kinda like a kid when you tell them no They have to find out why...
This makes no sense. If anemones were banned from import and sale, they would not be available at your LFS. I know of no black market for purchasing livestock, and if there is the impact would be minimal nor would it change collection methods.

I believe you are trying to compare this to using cyanide on fish, but it is not the same. Cyanide is illegal, but the fish are not...which is why such methods can exist.
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:43 PM   #16
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This makes no sense. If anemones were banned from import and sale, they would not be available at your LFS
This is where divers take it into their own hands as they already do off the Keys and in Hawaii and collect their own... Where there is a will there is a way..

The only point that I am trying to make is in that article that was posted it states to stop buying anemones so that the LFS and suppliers will no longer carry them.. I do not agree with that..

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I believe you are trying to compare this to using cyanide on fish, but it is not the same. Cyanide is illegal, but the fish are not...which is why such methods can exist.
I am in no way comparing this to the Cyanide caught fish.. That is inhumane as well.. I am referring to If we can gets kilos upon kilos of cocaine and meth into this country by the minute you can get fish into here... If you create the Demand for them by not selling them it would in turn cause more inexperienced divers into the waters to collect them for illegal import and sale into the country.. I hear all the time about ppl collecting their own lovestock in the keys and talking about how easy it was to get away with it..

this is the only point that I am trying to make is... I feel that the LFS owners and employees should take the time and do their part when selling livestock... Thus in turn would stop alot of the unusual and un needed deaths due to poor lighting, uncycled tanks ect.. If the LFS stores did this then their wouldn't be as many deaths... When reading I took notes as to what ppl were doing to have anemones thrive long term Inquiring and writting.. I compared the notes and was like "so and so kept this one for 4 years and never fed it" ect... Find the simularities and follow them.. However even if you follow them the species could have been damaged in collection/shipment or it could have been damaged at the LFS when removed from the holding tanks..

I agree with the article to the sense that they should not be bought without proper research but the article states that we should just flat out stop purchasing them all together.. I do not agree with that at all..

James
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:31 PM   #17
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I am in no way comparing this to the Cyanide caught fish.. That is inhumane as well.. I am referring to If we can gets kilos upon kilos of cocaine and meth into this country by the minute you can get fish into here... If you create the Demand for them by not selling them it would in turn cause more inexperienced divers into the waters to collect them for illegal import and sale into the country.. I hear all the time about ppl collecting their own lovestock in the keys and talking about how easy it was to get away with it..
C'mon dude, that is ridiculous.....realistically consider how many aquarists would pay the high costs and go through the effort to locate and purchase from an aquatic "black market". You can't exactly hide anemones in coffee....it would be ridiculously expensive for the "dealer" for such a tiny potential market. And could you imagine the costs for getting caught? You wouldn't be able to show it to anyone or post pictures on the net....it would have to be kept in a tank in the basement behind a fake wall.

I understand your underlying point, but can't agree with the perspective or your previous insinuation that the hobby is now successful at keeping anemones.

With 95+% still dying within 5 years in aquariums (not to mention all that don't even make it to the LFS), at some point the desires of yourself, myself, and the others who research their rear ends off prior to purchase of their anemones may not be all that important. The big picture is grim, but the self-serving needs of the retailers and hobbyists is what comes first, including those with relatively insignificant success.

Personally, I think it would be better to impose a licensing policy on delicate species of all types. But this would be costly to implement, and would make retailers lose money....so it is not likely to happen. So, we have few other alternatives. Impose a temporary ban (or self-imposed ban by not purchasing these animals) at least on certain livestock that are having miserable survival rates...and asking the few folks that have success to give up future selections for the greater good of the species. Or stand by and follow the typical response of not doing anything for the sake of being able to make money and/or purchase whatever we as a consumer want. Or only promote captive raised like the BTA's. Which answer is best?

There is no clear answer as it is a moral one. I do know for a fact though that I, you, nor any other hobbyist do not NEED to have an anemone, a moorish idol, an elegance coral, a goniopora, or any other delicate species.
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:43 PM   #18
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I don't agree with keeping any pet that can outlive their owner. Anemones should be able to live hundreds of years for many species. Fish at best live to be 30 years or so, at least the ones that can be kept in an aquarium. This also includes long lived parrots, IMO. Even if you get it to live for the length of your life then how can you expect that the next person will be as diligent. We take in pets with the assumption that we will give them the best care we possibly can for "their" life. But if they can easily outlive us who is to say what happens next.

There is no way to change people's minds that already have them. I am just throwing out the information so that people who are considering them will at least understand the potential problems that they are getting involved with. I prefer to see my anemones in the wild.

Perhaps in awhile I will do an informal poll to see what success people have had.
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Old 01-13-2004, 02:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by tkos
Perhaps in awhile I will do an informal poll to see what success people have had.
I wouldn't mind seeing the results of this. I know most don't have luck with keeping them but some of the "experts" have had them for years, wouldn't mind seeing how has had luck(or skill) in keeping one for an extended period of time.
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Old 01-13-2004, 02:25 PM   #20
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tkos wrote:

Perhaps in awhile I will do an informal poll to see what success people have had.


I wouldn't mind seeing the results of this. I know most don't have luck with keeping them but some of the "experts" have had them for years, wouldn't mind seeing how has had luck(or skill) in keeping one for an extended period of time.
I would love to see this poll as well.. I know that there are personally a few that have kept the most delicate species such as the H. Malu and H. Manifica for many years without issue. I can only account for what I have read and been told.. I knot there is a Sabae that the LFS has had for 3+yrs and another LFS has kept a Rose for going on 4yrs.. They are anemones being kept long term Thats for sure

James
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