24 hour fishless cycle

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cgjedi

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
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39537d1388690829-8-tank-shrimp-rack-img_20140102_112337.jpg.att


I built a 8 x 10 gallon rack over the Christmas break. I've been working on cycling the tank and wanted to report my experience. While planning this system, I found a product I'd not heard of before which claimed to allow cycling a tank within 24 hours. Not only that, but the particular bacteria it contained would actually convert nitrates into N2 as part of aerobic denitrification (usually this is done anaerobically by bacteria). But if this was so revolutionary why couldn't I find much written about it? I decided to give it a try anyway. I want to post my results so that others can (re)discover this product because it deserves to be better known.

HDLTD.com

With 8 x 10 gallons + 15 gallons in the sump there is roughly 95 gallons total. There is Hydroton as the bacteria media in the sump. I use this expanded clay material because I'm interested in keeping plants. According to Hiatt, if I used the recommended tri-base carbon, all the nitrogen would be scrubbed from the system which would not leave any for the plants. But the bacteria need a media that has extremely high surface area. Both tribase carbon and hydroton provide this amount of surface area.

At Hour 0 these were the water conditions:
pH 6.5
0 ppm Total Ammonia (Free Ammonia and Ammonium ion)
20 degrees Celsius

I dropped in 150ml of bottled Ammonia(NH3) which brought the system up to 5ppm Total Ammonia
At the same time I put in half a bottle of the Right Now bacteria (HDLTD.com)

36 hours later these were the water conditions:
pH 7.2
5 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4+)
0.15 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)


48 hours after adding the bacteria):
pH 7.2
> 6 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4)
0 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)

Just so the results are clear. Within 48 hours, all the toxic ammonia has been turned into non toxic ammonium ion form. I would have liked to test the nitrites and nitrates as well but unfortunately the used kit I have is faulty and I have to wait to get a new kit.

In any case, this is a totally surprising result (to me) and verifies the claims made by Hiatt on his website. He says in order to know that things are working correctly, test that the ammonia (toxic) has been converted to ammonium ion (non toxic).

As I said I would still like to verify nitrates, but the tank is cycled. And totally non-scientific evidence - the water smells like fish tank water does.
 
A week later, I got a Nitrate test kit and decided to do another 24-48 hour cycle test with Ammonia.

Water conditions at Hour 0:
pH 7.0
0 ppm Nitrate
2 ppm Ammonium ion
0 ppm Ammonia
2 KH
5 GH
167 TDS
20 degrees C

I put in 100 ml of Ammonia to the 90 gallon system. I didn't want to put in as much as last time.

Water conditions at Hour 9:
pH 7.4
0 ppm Nitrate
>6 ppm Ammonium ion
0 ppm Ammonia
224 TDS

It seems I didn't even have to wait 24 hours for all the toxic ammonia to be converted into non-toxic ammonium ion. Within 9 hours, there are no nitrates whatsoever. Even during the last week from the initial cycle test, there have not been any nitrates showing up.
 
I still don't understand how this is working the cycle is ammo to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. So are you saying that this product is taking the nitrate that shows up at the end of the cycle and turning it in to ammonium but yet never showing up? Your TDS KH and GH don't really have a lot to do with the cycle Then numbers we need are the nitrite and nitrate. Are these showing up?
 
I have plants in the tanks only. I don't have fish. I am planning on having shrimp.

From what I've read these bacteria are not the usual ones in the typical nitrogen cycle. There are several chemical reactions taking place. But the end result is no ammonia, very little if any nitrates, no nitrites, and most of it locked up as ammonium ion or converted into nitrogen gas.
 
Would love to hear from any other "Right Now" bacteria users out there.
 
I still don't understand how this is working the cycle is ammo to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. So are you saying that this product is taking the nitrate that shows up at the end of the cycle and turning it in to ammonium but yet never showing up? Your TDS KH and GH don't really have a lot to do with the cycle Then numbers we need are the nitrite and nitrate. Are these showing up?

I have to agree as I am having difficulty as well understanding what this product is supposed to accomplish. Their website is rather vague and your 24hr or even 48hr results do not indicate a fully cycled tank or any cycle at all. The only thing that occurred was free ammonia was converted into less toxic ammonium. You can achieve the same results by dumping Prime or Amquel Plus into the tank as well. Nothing miraculous about this.

Their site simply states that it "keeps fish alive". It also states that deadly spikes of "ammonium" will not occur. Your tests are showing very high levels of ammonium. The site also states that nitrates "will settle between 2 and 4 mg/l". Same thing as 'ppm'. Your tests show zero nitrates despite their assurance you will have some nitrates within 48hrs (not 24hrs).

The site also recommends regular use of the additive along with their special carbon media which makes the product more questionable. Even scarier is the fact that they state that adding the full amount necessary of their carbon media to established tank "WILL KILL YOUR FISH" (their words and capitalization, not my own).

If you would like to test the effectiveness of this bacterial product (MINUS their carbon media- remove it), start dosing ammonia daily to 4-5ppm and post your daily results for NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 and PH (KH and GH if you have these). If this product can steadily and faithfully reduce ALL toxins to zero every single day without any effect on PH, KH or GH and does not need to be used on a regular basis (wcs, monthly, quarterly, etc) then it may worth discussing or recommending.

Look forward to seeing more data, however, I suspect there may be good reason this product is not mentioned or discussed often.
 
You obviously haven't read everything on the website or read through their patent. A lot of your questions would be answered. The tribase carbon they recommend is for non-planted tanks. Since I have plants, I do not use the carbon. The carbon will only kill the fish if you don't soak it in water first before putting it in the filter. That's not a questionable aspect at all.

My results have proved that it removes ammonia within 24 hours. That's what the bacteria does. I've done that twice. I'm convinced. I've heard of people like you on forums. Not going to fall for it.
 
I'm on my phone and can't look into detail on this but converting ammonia to ammonium is certainly not "removing" it. It's just changing its form. In any case ill look at this in more detail when I get on my computer.
 
Free ammonia converts into ammonium on it's own relative to temperature and pH in a system. And as mentioned, there are several products out there that temporarily 'bind' ammonia into ammonium, so that conversion should happen relatively quickly assuming they use the same chemicals to achieve this.

What kind of test kit are you using? Is it a nessler based reagent type kit? The liquid salicylate kits do not distinguish between nh3 and nh4+. What kind of chart are you reading your nh4+ from? I don't think color based shading is going to be accurate enough unless it's in something other than hobbyist level type testing.

For an example: 7.0 pH 20c temp, TAN (total ammonia nitrogen) reading of 6ppm.

The portion of that 6ppm that is actual toxic nh3 is 0.024 ppm, which is not likely to even register on a color shading kit.

CNYKOI - Ammonia calculator
 
I'm not going to get into an argument. But what the "moderators" have been commenting about and giving opinions on is totally not relavent for this product. It is not a chemical. It is bacteria. Please only post useful comments that further the discussion of this system. Not opinions.
 
To fully cycle a tank, you need bio-load (ammonia), and a filter that's running and converting NH3+NH4 --> Nitrites --> Nitrates.

Some product like Nutrafin Cycle put BB directly to the water, so it help their colony to begin and spread into the filter, but nothing I know cycle a tank in one day.

Is this BB in bottle, or is it more a chemical that remove ammonia ?
 
Holy crap CGjedi.. The ONLY argument here that is forming is the one that will start because you are super defensive about such a minor thing and throwing insults around. With that being said I will get on with my "non moderator status" comments concerning this product.
 
A cycled tank means that the bacteria can convert ammonia completely into nitrate within 24 hours... Meaning zero ammonia (in any form) and nitrites, and some number of nitrates- depending on how high you dosed the ammonia.
Is bacteria really worth arguing about?
 
In my case Nutrafin Cycle directly dropped into the filter worked a bit, I cycled my filter in 7-10 days instead 4-5 weeks... But don't think this will really cycle in 24 hrs.
 
This looks like a fun topic! I love testing stuff!
But I have to disagree that there is much going on here with this product :(

39537d1388690829-8-tank-shrimp-rack-img_20140102_112337.jpg.att


the particular bacteria it contained would actually convert nitrates into N2 as part of aerobic denitrification (usually this is done anaerobically by bacteria).
First off, this is incorrect. The ammonia oxidizing and nitrite oxidizing bacteria that colonize the filter are aerobes. They are called nitrosomonas spp.and nitrospira spp., most often in aquaria it will specifically be nitrosomonas europa and nitrospira marina. These are aerobic bacteria and while nitrospira can operate at a lower dissolved oxygen content than nitrosomonas, and nitrospira can sometimes be found in the deep sand bed where conditions are aerobic, both are aerobic in our filtration systems.
Edit: OK I see you are talking about denitrification so what I said here is irrelevant.

36 hours later these were the water conditions:
pH 7.2
5 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4+)
0.15 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)


48 hours after adding the bacteria):
pH 7.2
> 6 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4)
0 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)

Just so the results are clear. Within 48 hours, all the toxic ammonia has been turned into non toxic ammonium ion form. I would have liked to test the nitrites and nitrates as well but unfortunately the used kit I have is faulty and I have to wait to get a new kit.
Unfortunately the claims are weak without the nitrite and nitrates :( So we can't get much, if anything, from this.
However. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria consume both NH3 and NH4. If there is the presence of either of these, the tank is not cycled in the standard sense. A cycled tank will not have any of either NH3 OR NH4. The standard API test kit tests for both of these compounds in tandem, and a reading of 0 is expected in a cycled tank.

Here is what I am guessing the product does -
I'm guessing it converts the toxic NH3 to less toxic NH4 and "holds" it there so that it does not harm the fish. Meanwhile the actual cycle occurs silently in the background (assuming one is not testing). Slowly the NH4 is building up the AOB and then the NOB.

There also seems to be some confusion about the ammonia toxicity part anyway. We teach on the forum to the newbies that any reading of ammonia at all is highly toxic, but in truth appx. 97.5% of the ammonia read with the test kit (remember, NH3+NH4) is actually the less toxic NH4. The state of ammonium versus ammonia is a function of the pH and temperature of the water. But of course you can put in additives such as Prime and apparently this stuff you're promoting to bind the remaining NH3 into NH4.

But I see no evidence of a cycle. Presence of NH4 precludes real cycle completion.

I am not a moderator and have only been a member since November :flowers:
 
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I'm not going to get into an argument. But what the "moderators" have been commenting about and giving opinions on is totally not relavent for this product. It is not a chemical. It is bacteria. Please only post useful comments that further the discussion of this system. Not opinions.

I was just explaining the nh3 / nh4+ relationship and asking for more specifics about your test procedure.

This is absolutely relevant to the claims being made and at this point it just looks like you are attempting a sales pitch rather than trying to discuss the situation.
I'm not sure why that cannot be done without an argument.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
I have plants in the tanks only. I don't have fish. I am planning on having shrimp.

From what I've read these bacteria are not the usual ones in the typical nitrogen cycle. There are several chemical reactions taking place. But the end result is no ammonia, very little if any nitrates, no nitrites, and most of it locked up as ammonium ion or converted into nitrogen gas.

Would love to hear from any other "Right Now" bacteria users out there.

I've tried several products in the past and found only one to work marginally. That was biospira which is no longer sold, but I believe the Dr. Tims product line absorbed it. The simple fact is their claims are automatically questionable because there is absolutely no vetting needed to market a product for fish keeping.

If your goal is to have a cycled tank, safe for fish, and easily maintained, I would recommend a media transfer cycle if that is an option for you. You may know all of this already, but it may be helpful as a brush up.

I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice
 
LOL if you're planning on shrimps, then I'll wait your tank mature at least 1 month, a very very tiny amount of ammonia will kill shrimps, so that's what I'll add when the tank will be mature.

Don't use shrimps as your first species, your first fishs should be the hardyest one to the ammonia.
Then you can add another species, and if everything still good without ammonia, then you'll can add shrimps.

I know people cycled fishless tank, they added shrimps, they were fine for 1 month, then he added a batch of fishs, and he lost his shrimps due to mini-cycle.
 
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