Advice on new tank *edited title*

[JRagg]

Well since I have now kicked my latest addiction (World of Warcraft) I need something to focus my energy on once again. I have always loved aquariums and taking care of them. I used to keep fish, but after a bout with some sort of fungus (killed 17 of 22) and then having to move and sell my 45 gallon tank (would have cost more to move it than it was worth) I have not kept fish in the last 9 months.

I still have my old 10 gallon aquarium, and due to financial constraints right now (getting married in September) I can't really go buy the 55 gallon that I want. I hope that by this time next year I will be able to upgrade to something larger. I have always wanted to keep cichlids, and I got a little bored with the standard tropical aquarium (though my clown loaches were always my favorites). In any case, I’m looking to get the 10 gallon set up again. I am perfectly fine with picking up a more difficult fish to keep since I have spent over two years taking care of a community tank (pretty easy).

I know that 10 gallons is far too small for the average cichlid, and that I need to get something smaller. Right now I’ve got my heart set on some German Blue Rams. I know they may be difficult to find, but I’m sure I can find some somewhere eventually. I have no problem having a tank with no fish in it (while waiting for the ones that I want). So my question(s) is(are) this: What do I need in order to keep these little fellas?

What I have so far is this:
10 gallon (wal-mart) aquarium
Penguin filter w/ biowheel (the smallest one they make)
Some plastic plants (want to replace with live for the GBRs)
Horrible substrate (Almost looks like pea gravel, and will replace with whatever is needed)
Pretty bad heater (will probably replace with something that has a temperature setpoint option)

What I think I need (this is where I need help):
Plants… I have no idea what kind I should look for
Substrate… not sure what is the best for the plants, though I got some ideas in the planted forum
New lighting… is new lighting required for plants? Special bulbs, etc.
Test kit… for the original cycle and subsequent care

Fish!
I’m guessing that 2-3 rams will be the max that this tank can handle. I would prefer having 3 instead of 2, but if 2 is the limit then so be it.

What other advice do I need to take care of these guys? pH requirements, etc.

Is this a bad idea? Can I keep rams in such a small tank? I know that larger tanks allow for easier chemistry control, but as I have stated that simply is not an option right now. I’m on a very tight budget.

This tank will probably stick around (as a QT) even after I have the 55 gallon that I’ve been eyeing for so long.

Any and all advice is appreciated… even if it is full of “Don’t do that!” replies.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Thebluyak]

I would think it would be to small, especially if you get three, 1m/2f and the one pair breeds, it will be hell for the other fish as they get aggressive when breeding. They also like plants but I personnally havnt got my GBR's yet so I cant be 100% on that adivce of the tank being to small. For plant info, go to planted section and read the stickys, they will help a ton. Also GBR's are very sensitive to water, PH changes, heat changes ammonia/nitrite will all make them very stressed or kill them. Loneblue or someone will give alot better info than I can though.

btw welcome to AA

Ryan

 

[Jchillin]

I agree that two GBR's is the max for that sized tank. As you may be aware, GBR's are notorious for succumbing prematurely to a myriad of issues, not withstanding water quality (which must be kept pristine) and adjusting to a tank after going through some sad conditions during and after being born. If you can find them, be very meticulous when selecting yours. Watch the tank for awhile and look for the healthiest ones. Avoid buying any that are new arrivals.

Do you know the ph, kh and gh of your existing water? If you have a low ph (6.5-6.8) you may also be interested in apistos (the cousins of GBR's). They are smaller (some only get to 2-3") and are quite colorful.

And Thbluyak is correct about the Planted tank forum for suggestions on planting the tank.

 

[JRagg]

I took a look at the planted forum and there definitely seems to be a lot more to it than I had originally thought. I had no idea how much went into a planted tank. I’m willing to give it a shot though.

I haven’t purchased another test kit yet (I gave away my last kit with my 45 gal. aquarium) so I’ll have to order one of those tonight and give my local water a test. I’ve been told that it’s pretty soft water by the feel of it. Like when you get out of the shower the water feels more slippery on your hands. I know that is definitely not a “rocket science” answer to the pH, kh, gh question.

I’ll check into the apistos. I know that smaller would definitely be better in an aquarium like this.

I appreciate the help on this. Sounds like I should steer clear of the GBR until I get a bigger tank and get a handle on planting.

 

[Jchillin]

The apistos would love a planted tank too, they are no different from the GBR's in that regard.

Planting isn't too hard, it's just a matter of getting the right plants and balancing their needs along with your fish. It's win, win for the fish since plants will add to the biological filtration of the tank. FWIW, my tank is low-maintenance (no fuel injection, aka CO2 and not of lot of additional fertilization).

 

[JRagg]

I guess this should be directed towards the planting forum.

So you can get away without CO2? That would make the planted aquarium immensely easier.

 

[rich311k]

Yes you can get away without CO2 as a matter of fact you can have a lush tank without CO2. It depends on your lighting. Check out the planted tank forum there is thread currently running showing fabulous low light non CO2 tanks. general rule is less the 2.5 watts per gallon you do not need CO2. Since your tank is ten gallons the general rule does not apply and you can push that even a little further.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

As for the lighting, if you just have the regular hood with the 2 screw-in CF florescent 10W bulbs from Walmart, you are set. You can look for plants like java moss, java ferns, crypts, anubias, and a few others. And will be easy to maintain.

As for the GBR's, excellent advice was given above. Don't buy them right away. Go in a few times, and see how they are doing over a period of a few days. And if they get a new shipment in, check periodically over the next week, give about a week or so for the weak ones to not make it in the lfs, rather than your tank. Once weak, no mater the conditions you give them, they are pretty much gonners. They aren't the type of fish that will generally come back if you give them the right conditions. So, with that in mind, only pick the best ones you see.

As for CO2, that's generally for higher light tanks, above 2w/g. sometimes can be pushed to 2.5w/g as rich has stated above. But for a 10G, that rule generally doesn't apply because of the low wattage of the bulbs over the tank, and the tank being so shallow. Which lights do you have for it?

Then, as for the numbers, I would say 3 max, maybe 4 if it's one of the smaller apistos. If you get the GBR's, try for 2 females and a male. Even during spawning, you shouldn't have too much trouble. I have 3 males and 1 female, and during the last spawning, they were fine. But I do have a larger tank though too. But they are not as vicious as some cichlids are. And are really great looking fish if given pristine water conditions. As for ph, preferable below 7.0, but if you are above 7.0, they will be fine as long as you have a stable ph. Some in here keep them in a ph of 7.8, and they are doing great. Just remember, like many have said in these forums, a stable ph is better than the perfect ph. In other words, if you try to play with chemicals to achieve a specific ph, the ph will always wander on you, and in most cases, will crash. So that's not a good idea. Stable is Best. The fish will love you for it. And if you don't believe me, just look at the pics of my Rams......

Edit:
When small, you might not always be able to tell male from female. Just keep an eye for 1 specific characteristic. A pink belly. Not all females will have them, but if you do see one or two with a nice pink belly, you are guaranteed they are females. Here's a pic of my little female, which I got. And she's just a baby, which goes to say, the pink in the belly doesn't just come with maturity. You will even find some babies with pink bellies...

Older male with young female:

 

[JRagg]

Those are great pictures. Those are the kinds of pictures that make me so interested in GBRs.

I think I'm going to try to go with the apistos though, mainly since they seem to be a bit hardier than GBRs (not much, but every little bit counts right?). I purchased a new hood last night because the screw in type bulb ballast that I had did not have any protection from the water other than a small silicone ring around where the bulb screwed in. That is fine with an irridescent bulb, but the CF bulbs have more stuff sticking out. Anyways, I have a 15W 18" flourescent bulb now. 1.5 wpg, which would put me in the low light category (no CO2). I can't find any eco-complete here, but I'm going to go with the tahitian (sp?) sand.

I found an old pH test kit that I had (about 2 years old) and I got some really screwy numbers. The pH of my tap water was off the chart high (about 9.5), which I know is wrong. I'm guessing that storing that stuff in a garage during scorching heat and then freezing weather has screwed up the chemicals. So...

I'm buying the AP test kit tonight (from Petsmart with the online prices printed out), so I'll be able to give some numbers as to my current water quality. That is probably where I'll need a bit of help. My last tank was just tropicals, and they did fine with tap water with a bit of prime in it to remove chlorine/chloramines. I never had any other problems (other than the disease that wiped out the whole tank).

 

[JRagg]

Ok. My tank is starting to come along fairly nicely now. The reason I'm adding to this thread instead of posting elsewhere is that I'm still interested in dwarf cichlids.

So far I have four plants in it:

Hornwort
Java Fern
Red Melon Sword (looks great)
Anubias (also looks very good)

I found a stor that sells pretty much all low light plants, so I've got plenty to choose from. The first place I went to had a pretty poor selection and the plants weren't in the best of shape, but that's nothing a little light and some root tabs won't fix.

My tap water is of horrible quality:
pH >8.8 (that's the highest the AP kit reads)
dKH - 3 (53.7ppm)
dGH - 8 (143.2ppm)

I didn't bother testing for ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites in the tap.

My current tank conditions are: (I pulled the carbon out of the filter two days ago)
pH 7.8
dKH - 4 (71.6ppm)
dGH - 10 (179ppm)
Ammonia - 1ppm
Nitrites - 0ppm
Nitrates - 5ppm

I have not started a cycle yet, but the Ammonia and Nitrates are most likely coming from the Flourish Tabs in the substrate. The substrate is Seachem's Grey Coast natural calcite. I wanted either black sand or eco-complete (which was not available anywhere that I could find in town). The sand was filthy and required hours of cleaning, but it looks fantastic now. I also have a piece of petrified wood in the tank. I plan on adding some sort of cave to the center when I get the time. I found something at the pet store today that looked like a broken vase, but it was a bit pricey.

I'm guessing that the substrate and wood may be contributing to the pH decline between my tap and my tank, but I'm not sure about that.

It looks like most apistos require a lower pH than what I have (by far). Will this be an issue? I also have virtually no idea as to how GH and KH actually affect fish. Any help would be greatly appreciated on that front.

Is there a natural way to bring my pH down lower? Driftwood or crushed coral? Since it is only a 10 gallon tank I would be willing to do PWCs with storebought DI water if required (until I can choke up the cash for a DI unit).

Thanks in advance. This forum is an amazing wealth of information.
-Jeff

 

[tbonem91]

come back to wow... you know you want to... lol

nice tank - good luck with the cycle.

as far as ph goes, driftwood will lower it slightly and coral will raise it. adding co2 will also lower it while helping out with plants - you can search around for "diy co2" for that route if you want...

 

[JRagg]

I managed to sell my WoW account, so I can't come back. It was too much of a time commitment anyways. It started to feel like I had a second job, so I quit the one that doesn't pay me.

I think I've decided on Bolivian Rams. I had made a wrong assumption about them and their coloring. It looks like as they get a little older they start to get more coloring than what I see in the stores and in some pictures online. Unfortunately it is a 50/50 chance of me getting a sexed pair if I buy two. I'm pretty sure I know you guys will say two is the max, but is it possible to put three in a 10 gallon? That would increase my chances of getting a pair to 75% (assuming a 50/50 mix at the store). It could also spread around a little of the aggression if I don't get a mated pair.

I'll go with the driftwood (thanks for the advice). Maybe find one that has some "cavelike properties". I'd like to push my pH down to about 7.6 and then I would be more comfortable with bolivians. Everthing that I've read says that they can handle up to about 7.8 (please correct me if this is wrong).

I'm still not sure about the DIY CO2. I may end up doing it, but for now it isn't on the list.

**It also seems that I have gotten a medium-high light plant in the Red Melon Sword... It was labeled as "moderate light" on the tag. I hope there is a chance in this doing well in my tank. If not I'll have to figure out something to do with it.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Are you sure you aren't talking about German Blue Rams? I'm not even sure a pair of Bolivians would work in a 10G. I have 3 in a 29G. And they are about 3 inches each, not including the tail. I feel they would be a bit cramped in a 10G, even just a pair. I wouldn't recommend under a 20G. Now for GBR's? 2 or 3 would be fine. But possibly might need to remove one down the road. The pics I posted above are GBR's.

Here's my Bolivian Rams...

 

[Lonewolfblue]

edit

 

[JRagg]

Kick me when I think I've got it figured out, lol.

Yeah, I was thinking about bolivians. I have seen some bolivian pics that have virtually no color at all and almost look like pale tiger barbs. So bolivians are a no no for that size tank... hmm. I guess I've still got about a month to figure it out while my tank cycles. I did have detectable levels of Nitrite tonight (I would call it 0.1 or so. A little more purple than zero like yesterday). So maybe the plants I put in had some good bacteria on them from the store. Ammonia levels are down about 0.5ppm as well.

Are there any good online stores that sell GBRs? Would my water be acceptable for them? My pH seems a bit high, and my water is also too hard according to some stuff that I've read. I would absolutely love to have a pair of them, but I can't find any stores around here that stock them.

**Edit to post pic

This is the kind of pic that I've seen.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

You could try a pair of Bolivians. But keep in mind that down the road, you might have to upgrade, as they may or may not want more room. But for me, it's a close call to make that decision. Maybe if they are small from the beginning they will adjust to the space, and be ok when full grown.

As for GBR's, just keep in mind, water conditions must be pristine. Especially at higher ph's. They will do fine, but will be more susceptable to water conditions at those ph levels. And, yes, Bolivians can really be bland when young. But when they start to mature, and all the reds and blues start coming out, they are beautiful.

 

[JRagg]

I do plan on upgrading in about nine months. An upcoming wedding and other expenses are keeping me from just buying it like I normally would. I'd like to get a 46 bowfront or something of similar size. I know a 29 isn't too terribly expensive either.

Looks like I've got a decision on my hands. I really appreciate all of the help. I'll be sure to post pictures of whatever I get after I get it.

Thanks again,
-Jeff

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Cool....

Then Bolivians would be fine as well.