Ahh! What's up with this nitrate spike??

[Wylgamez]

Yesterday I found my newest fish dead. This was a very healthy to the eye fish that was brought in 2 weeks ago. I checked the water and found out nitrate was at 40. I did a 25% wc. Today I checked the nitrate level and it's still the same. I immediately did a 50% wc and got rid of the carbon in the filter which I haven't changed in month and a half. I believe that is the reason of the spike, I'm a little confused about its importance since I've read some people don't even use carbon and others leave it for longer time that I've left it in the tank and of course there are others who recommends changing it every month.

Anyways, I checked the nitrates after the 50% wc and it's now somewhere between 10 and 20 ppm, not too clear to me, please refer to the picture. What should I do next? I think last time this happened (maybe 9 months ago) I kept changing the water, but my fish are still stressed out and I don't want to harm them more. The rest of the parameters are 0 with ph 7.8, 77 degrees in a 20g tall planted tank. 5 green tiger barbs, 1 albino tb, 1 kuhli loach, 5 assassin snails plus a small plague of mystery snails.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Rivercats]

Nitrates under 20ppm are fine but if you want you can do another WC to lower them a little more. Dirty filter media can indeed be the cause of high nitrates, as can very dirty substrate, too high a bio-load, etc. If your nitrates are low and fish are still acting or looking off watch them closely as a new fish could easily brought some type of disease or even parasites into the tank.

 

[Wylgamez]

I did something this week that could have been the reason. I turned off tank lights to kill some algae attached to my plants, and there's a lot of dead algae I think.. I have no idea how fast algae dies but there is definitely plants to clean. ??

 

[Wylgamez]

I forgot to ask, when should I do the next wc?

 

[Rivercats]

Algae can die very quickly and yes it adds ammonia which processes into more nitrates. So you can do another WC if you want now to lower them a bit more or just go back to your regular weekly WC schedule.

 

[jpchin]

my nitrates have always been at about 40 and that is acceptable for a freshwater tank. i don't think your fish death was caused by nitrates at 40. did you shake the 2nd bottle of test solution for at least 2 minutes? if not you might be getting a false reading and your nitrates could be much higher than 40 which might explain the loss of the new fish. the "old" fish have had a chance to get a gradual exposure to the high nitrates where the "new" fish was introduced to the high nitrates all at once. the other thing is it could be you got a weak or sick fish. i would advise that you do a good and thorough gravel cleaning. move all your decorations and also clean the glass. other than that wait and see. water quality is VERY important so keep up with the water changes. i personally do a 25% water change every 3rd day. happy to say i've never experienced disease in my tank. i attribute that to the water changes and a bit of "good luck".

 

[pip walters]

Toxicity of nitrates varies greatly in species. for Cyprinid species, such as barbs, carp etc, nitrate becomes toxic to fish at levels greater than 1000ppm. Each ppm of ammonia is converted to 4.57ppm nitrate during nitrification. 40ppm would not have killed you fish. Most texts recommend a partial water change if your nitrate levels reach 50ppm, but this is to help prevent algae. Most algae also require the correct level of phosphate coupled with nitrate, plus light in order to flourish.

I suspect your fish may have had some underlying health problem, such as parasites or other disease issues, as suggested already by Rivercats and this may have spread. I would suspect whitespot - this parasite can cause deaths even before you see the spots. If any of your fish look excessively ppale or slimy, they may have other parasites such as Chilodonella (easliy removed using salt) or trichodina (potassium permanganate will get rid of this one).

 

[Rivercats]

Today 20ppm of nitrates is considered the top amount wanted in tanks. There are several fish species such as GB Rams, many nano fish, and several others suffer at nitrate levels over 20ppm. I keep Dwarf Anchor Cats, Hara Jedoni, who suffer and quickly die at nitrate levels over 12.5ppm. Lower nitrates are better for fish and 50ppm is considered high.

As for the algae and nitrate... algae is caused not caused from high nitrates and phosphates. In planted tanks under certain dosing regimes such as EI. nitrates and phosphates are kept at high levels. Yes in fishless tanks nitrates and phosphates levels should be kept low since there are no plants to use them BUT most algae issues in fish only tanks can be traced to leaving lighting on way too long. Plus there are many different types of algae found in tanks and besides lighting there are different reasons and causes for them. Even high nitrates and phosphates in a fishless tank that does not run lighting excessively won't necessarily cause the formation of any type of algae.

 

[Masha]

... algae is caused not caused from high nitrates and phosphates.

Rivercats, I did not understand this bit. Is there maybe a word missing?

 

[Rivercats]

Rivercats, I did not understand this bit. Is there maybe a word missing?

Yep there is an extra caused.... should read is not caused. I usually catch typo's but sometimes they slip by me, sorry for the confusion.

 

[pip walters]

Today 20ppm of nitrates is considered the top amount wanted in tanks. There are several fish species such as GB Rams, many nano fish, and several others suffer at nitrate levels over 20ppm. I keep Dwarf Anchor Cats, Hara Jedoni, who suffer and quickly die at nitrate levels over 12.5ppm. Lower nitrates are better for fish and 50ppm is considered high.

As for the algae and nitrate... algae is caused not caused from high nitrates and phosphates. In planted tanks under certain dosing regimes such as EI. nitrates and phosphates are kept at high levels. Yes in fishless tanks nitrates and phosphates levels should be kept low since there are no plants to use them BUT most algae issues in fish only tanks can be traced to leaving lighting on way too long. Plus there are many different types of algae found in tanks and besides lighting there are different reasons and causes for them. Even high nitrates and phosphates in a fishless tank that does not run lighting excessively won't necessarily cause the formation of any type of algae.

Nothing 'causes' algae, they are a living organism, so I am misquoted once again. I actually said that water changes to reduce nitrate help to prevent algal growth.

To develop into algae and multiply, the organisms need nitrate. There are many instances of nitrate and phosphate fertiliser run-off from farming being attributed to algal blooms in nearby watercourses. In fact, algal blooms, especially blue-green motile species, can be controlled my manipulating nitrate and phosphate levels. Also, algae are used as 'natural' filters to remove nutrients in some cases of eutrophication of natural water bodies. Marine aquarists encourage algae to grow on live rock and in sumps for this very purpose.

I assume you read this article... which isn't a very scientific one... Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don’t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com

 

[Rivercats]

"Most texts recommend a partial water change if your nitrate levels reach 50ppm, but this is to help prevent algae."

I was merely explaining that nitrates don't cause algae in response to the above sentence. Sorry but I didn't read any articles or whatever the above thread is that you posted a link to. This is a "forum" and you seem to think this is a personal affront on what you say. Forum's give "everyone" a voice and people quite often don't agree. Just because someone give's a response another doesn't agree with and or gives the reasons why, also giving more information out for other members but especially to new comers into the hobby, is quite acceptable.

You are using an example of algae in natural bodies of water and not in regards to fw aquariums which is what is being discussed. You cannot compare a closed aquarium system to natural bodies of water. Also you can't compare the types of algae grown in SW setups to freshwater algaes as I too kept reef tanks for many years.

I have neither misquoted you nor attacked what you said but simply gave my opinion, just as you gave yours, which is what the forum is about. I was told once long ago by a moderator that different views and opinions are what keeps a good forum in balance so to speak.

Information, views, and opinions needs to be given in respect to our freshwater aquariums. Your not the only member with years of experience in the hobby and insinuating I read an article to make a post is insulting.

 

[pip walters]

Thanks rivercats. I am merely attempting to iron out some conflicting information that may confuse newcomers or even established aquarists.

I can compare what happens in natural conditions because this is, surely, what we are trying to emulate as best we can in our aquariums. A build up of excessive nutrient in an aquatic environment will contribute to changes within that environment, be it a lake or an aquarium and one of these changes can be in the form of the development of excess algae, something I have witnessed and been charged with correcting in both natural and artificial conditions.

Different views and opinions are good, I agree, as long as they are factual, so please don't tell me what I can and can't compare unless you are going to give good reasons as to why - otherwise, it just looks like you are being argunmentative.

Also, I wasn't comparing marine to freshwater systems, merely pointing out that species of algae can and are used to remove excess nitrate.

 

[Wylgamez]

my nitrates have always been at about 40 and that is acceptable for a freshwater tank. i don't think your fish death was caused by nitrates at 40. did you shake the 2nd bottle of test solution for at least 2 minutes? if not you might be getting a false reading and your nitrates could be much higher than 40 which might explain the loss of the new fish. the "old" fish have had a chance to get a gradual exposure to the high nitrates where the "new" fish was introduced to the high nitrates all at once. the other thing is it could be you got a weak or sick fish. i would advise that you do a good and thorough gravel cleaning. move all your decorations and also clean the glass. other than that wait and see. water quality is VERY important so keep up with the water changes. i personally do a 25% water change every 3rd day. happy to say i've never experienced disease in my tank. i attribute that to the water changes and a bit of "good luck".

It says 30 seconds in my booklet and I usually do 1 minute but if 2 minutes is the way to go I could try that and compare the difference. Thanks!

 

[Wylgamez]

Thanks so much Pip Walters and Rivercats for the school chemistry hell flashback! I loved it, as a water keeper enthusiast I found this very interesting and helpful. My tank has been in a black out for a while now, I'll check parameters in a little bit and then do a 50% wc and finally tank will be back to the regular 25%wc/ weekly and 6hours/day lighting schedule. It used to be 8 before but I realized is too much, since the blackout algae is almost gone.

 

[Wylgamez]

Toxicity of nitrates varies greatly in species. for Cyprinid species, such as barbs, carp etc, nitrate becomes toxic to fish at levels greater than 1000ppm. Each ppm of ammonia is converted to 4.57ppm nitrate during nitrification. 40ppm would not have killed you fish. Most texts recommend a partial water change if your nitrate levels reach 50ppm, but this is to help prevent algae. Most algae also require the correct level of phosphate coupled with nitrate, plus light in order to flourish. I suspect your fish may have had some underlying health problem, such as parasites or other disease issues, as suggested already by Rivercats and this may have spread. I would suspect whitespot - this parasite can cause deaths even before you see the spots. If any of your fish look excessively ppale or slimy, they may have other parasites such as Chilodonella (easliy removed using salt) or trichodina (potassium permanganate will get rid of this one).

hmm... Treating sick fish can be tricky with the scale-less kuhli loach and the snails in the same tank. I'll keep an eye for symptoms.. but yes that dead fish had tiny black dots and maybe stringy poop, something I haven't seen with the other fish. Thanks again.

 

[Rivercats]

"I can compare what happens in natural conditions because this is, surely, what we are trying to emulate as best we can in our aquariums. A build up of excessive nutrient in an aquatic environment will contribute to changes within that environment, be it a lake or an aquarium and one of these changes can be in the form of the development of excess algae, something I have witnessed and been charged with correcting in both natural and artificial conditions."

This explanation ties both together, showing/explaining the relationship of nitrates and algae in both aquarium and freshwater bodies which was not in the first explanation given. Which is what I was pointing out as you can't compare, figuratively not literally, as you seem to have taken the meaning of the word "can't" (as in just stating facts about natural bodies of water without tying it to fw aquariums). Your way of wording and my way of wording on different ends of the ponds do not seem to translate well.

"Also, I wasn't comparing marine to freshwater systems, merely pointing out that species of algae can and are used to remove excess nitrate."

Which isn't done in freshwater tanks so again the you can't compare (figuratively not literally, as your suggesting I meant "no you aren't allowed to compare") freshwater to saltwater tanks refers to the fact that SW tanks are run entirely different than FW tanks and the info has no bearing to nitrates and algae in FW tanks.

I run all planted tanks and am quite versed in nutrient levels and keeping all my tanks algae free along with helping many resolve their algae problems over the years. I have no idea how after just saying everyone has their own opinions that I would be telling anyone they aren't "allowed" to write or compare something.

 

[Rivercats]

hmm... Treating sick fish can be tricky with the scale-less kuhli loach and the snails in the same tank. I'll keep an eye for symptoms.. but yes that dead fish had tiny black dots and maybe stringy poop, something I haven't seen with the other fish. Thanks again.

That sounds like Black Spot Disease which is a parasitic infection. It's seen a lot in gourami's. Can't say for certain without having seen a picture of the fish.

 

[Rivercats]

It says 30 seconds in my booklet and I usually do 1 minute but if 2 minutes is the way to go I could try that and compare the difference. Thanks!

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Those tests give accurate results if directions are followed. I use an API nitrate test which gives specific directions of 30 seconds of shaking the 2nd bottle before adding to the test tube, then shaking 1minute vigorously after adding the drops and before letting it sit 5 minutes to develop. I suggest using the test according to it's directions which will give you proper readings.