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ArtesiaWells

Aquarium Advice Addict
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Jun 1, 2012
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Hello.

I currently keep five fancy goldfish in a 60-gallon rectangular aquarium. The tank has been up and running for approximately two and a half years now, believe it or not. After the recent regular loss of some fancies and now with erratic behavior from some of my current stock and pretty poor-looking water quality, I decided to break out the API kit to run some parameter checks. Can anyone help me understand the results?

The tests came back with:

pH (not the "High Range" pH test because according to the kit's instructions, goldfish prefer a pH that falls in the "regular" pH range): 7.6ppm or higher (the color was very blue, possibly beyond what the color chart provides as the "darkest" aqua blue)

AMMONIA: 0.25ppm (I can never seem to drop this to 0; possibly because I have goldfish?)

NITRITE: 0ppm

NITRATE: 40ppm or higher (this is a devastatingly difficult test for me to read; the orange range on the color chart/card seems to indicate my water's results can be anywhere from the 40 to almost the "darkest" orange area...)


I plan on doing at least a 25% water change in a couple of hours or so, but can someone in the meantime help me analyze these results? Are they okay for fancy goldies?

Additional info: Filtration in the tank is provided via an AquaClear 110 AND an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, so there's about over 800 GPH being turned over here; I also run Purigen in both filters (Seachem) routinely, but I am awaiting a shipment of new 100ml bags. And, I am providing additional aeration via two bubble bars (Petco) in the rear of the tank, fed by two separate air pumps (a Rena and a Tetra Whisper).

Thanks in advance!
 
Do you clean the filter pads on a weekly basis during your weekly water change? Does your substrate collect a lot of waste (usually in large substrate such as pebbles)? Is your tap water reading 0 ammonia and what is nitrAte reading for your tap?

Seachem Prime is a good water conditioner.
 
Hi! Welcome to AA!!! What type of filtration do you have? How often/what % are your water changes on a weekly basis? With 5 fancies in a 60g, you should be doing atleast 50-75% water changes minimum of twice a week. 25% simply is not sufficient with messy goldies especially with this many in a 60g. I suspect your biological/mechanical filtration may not be sufficient to handle the bioload of these guys which is why theres ammonia present.

Have you tested your ph with the high range ph test? Are you adding any chemicals to adjust the ph? The regular ph test has a limit of 7.6 (blue)- a blue result can indicate a ph of 7.6 or 8 or 8.8. The result will still look the same. Some more information will help us to help you better! :)
 
Do you clean the filter pads on a weekly basis during your weekly water change? Does your substrate collect a lot of waste (usually in large substrate such as pebbles)? Is your tap water reading 0 ammonia and what is nitrAte reading for your tap?

Seachem Prime is a good water conditioner.

Hello, Terrance. Thank you for the reply and assistance.

I actually haven't gotten onto a weekly water change schedule; we normally change the water when it seems like there's a problem (odor change, visual quality chance, sickness symptoms, etc.). I know that's not good -- but I'm just reporting what's been going on. :) Further, we weren't losing fish until just recently really, with two of our fancies, a Red Cap Oranda and a chocolate brown and gold fantail, with us since we set the tank up some two and a half years ago! Those two seem to be doing fine, growing and thriving. The other three are newer additions to the tank -- a Black Moor, a young Red Cap and a Comet-looking orange colored fork tail -- and are all much smaller than the other two. The Comet/Koi-looking goldie doesn't seem like he's going to be alive much longer based on behavior.

I have not tested our tap water for those results and parameters you mentioned, only the tank water. I am a fan of Seachem's stuff, particularly the Prime and Purigen; I didn't really have much success with Clarity, PhosGuard or Stability in the past.
 
Hi! Welcome to AA!!!

Thank you, jlk! :thanks:
What type of filtration do you have?

I believe I mentioned this toward the end of my original post, but we're running two HOBs on this tank -- an AquaClear 110 and an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, so the total turnover rate is beyond 800 GPH if my math is correct. I also run 100ml bags of Seachem Purigen in each of the filters for added polishing and toxic absorbtion. The filter cartridges in the Aqueon get changed out on their recommended schedule, about a month each time or until the pads look really disgusting; in the AquaClear, I'm running the stock sponge on bottom, then normally two sacks of Purigen (right now nothing there as I am waiting for a new shipment of Purigen) and then the BioMax rings on top. I am also running two 18" bubble bars in the rear of the tank, so there is a ton of aeration going on here between those and the two filters.

How often/what % are your water changes on a weekly basis?

We don't do them on a weekly basis. :( :(

With 5 fancies in a 60g, you should be doing atleast 50-75% water changes minimum of twice a week. 25% simply is not sufficient with messy goldies especially with this many in a 60g. I suspect your biological/mechanical filtration may not be sufficient to handle the bioload of these guys which is why theres ammonia present.

The thing is, only two of these fancies are large and seem to "over eat" and create more waste compared to the smaller ones. I was under the assumption that five fancy goldies were okay for a tank this size, as long as there was adequate filtration -- running two large HOB's like we're doing I thought would be sufficient enough, especially with Purigen in each of them. You really think that 50 to 75% water changes are necessary twice a week? Wow; that's a lot of work! I may have to think about that because we're not using a typical syphon system, but rather doing it the old fashioned way through sucking out the old water through the change tube syphon (a POS Top Fin type) and letting that water cascade out a nearby window to our yard below and then filling the tank with new water via bucket trips from the bathroom. This is an exhaustive and back breaking process, so we try and do this as little as we can!

As for the filtration, do you not think what we have is sufficient in terms of biological and mechanical? Again, two HOB's are hanging off the back of the tank -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 (which takes two large floss/carbon cartridges) and an AquaClear 110 which is running the sponge, Seachem Purigen (normally two 100ml packs) and the BioMax rings.

Have you tested your ph with the high range ph test? Are you adding any chemicals to adjust the ph? The regular ph test has a limit of 7.6 (blue)- a blue result can indicate a ph of 7.6 or 8 or 8.8. The result will still look the same. Some more information will help us to help you better! :)

The reason why I didn't test with the high range solutions is because based on API's instructions for the kit, goldfish seem to fall into the range handled and analyzed by the standard pH test -- not the high pH.

Thank you for your assistance.
 
ArtesiaWells said:
Thank you, jlk! :thanks:

I believe I mentioned this toward the end of my original post, but we're running two HOBs on this tank -- an AquaClear 110 and an Aqueon QuietFlow 55, so the total turnover rate is beyond 800 GPH if my math is correct. I also run 100ml bags of Seachem Purigen in each of the filters for added polishing and toxic absorbtion. The filter cartridges in the Aqueon get changed out on their recommended schedule, about a month each time or until the pads look really disgusting; in the AquaClear, I'm running the stock sponge on bottom, then normally two sacks of Purigen (right now nothing there as I am waiting for a new shipment of Purigen) and then the BioMax rings on top. I am also running two 18" bubble bars in the rear of the tank, so there is a ton of aeration going on here between those and the two filters.

We don't do them on a weekly basis. :( :(

The thing is, only two of these fancies are large and seem to "over eat" and create more waste compared to the smaller ones. I was under the assumption that five fancy goldies were okay for a tank this size, as long as there was adequate filtration -- running two large HOB's like we're doing I thought would be sufficient enough, especially with Purigen in each of them. You really think that 50 to 75% water changes are necessary twice a week? Wow; that's a lot of work! I may have to think about that because we're not using a typical syphon system, but rather doing it the old fashioned way through sucking out the old water through the change tube syphon (a POS Top Fin type) and letting that water cascade out a nearby window to our yard below and then filling the tank with new water via bucket trips from the bathroom. This is an exhaustive and back breaking process, so we try and do this as little as we can!

As for the filtration, do you not think what we have is sufficient in terms of biological and mechanical? Again, two HOB's are hanging off the back of the tank -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 (which takes two large floss/carbon cartridges) and an AquaClear 110 which is running the sponge, Seachem Purigen (normally two 100ml packs) and the BioMax rings.

The reason why I didn't test with the high range solutions is because based on API's instructions for the kit, goldfish seem to fall into the range handled and analyzed by the standard pH test -- not the high pH.

Thank you for your assistance.

It may be a lot of work but do you want to compromise the health of your fish?
 
It may be a lot of work but do you want to compromise the health of your fish?

Well, no, but I'm just reporting on how difficult our method has been and why we try and do the changes as little as possible -- it is also the reason I purchased two large HOB's for this 60-gallon as to cut down on required maintenance on our part (also why I decided to load the filters down with Seachem's Purigen, to further cut down on maintenance for getting toxins out).
 
Your filtration is sufficient but it doesnt eliminate the need for regular water changes. With messy goldies, the more water changes, the better! Healthy water will eliminate most of the issues you have are having with your fish right now. Have you considered investing in an aqueon/python/other type of water changer? I honestly would get rid of my big tanks if I had to do water changes via the bucket method!

Ok, another issue that is factoring into your ammonia levels is the fact you are changing the filters on a regular basis. Everytime you do this, you are throwing away the good bacteria that process your ammonia. Just simply swish the filter cartridges in some used tank water once a week with a water change to remove debris. The filters should look brown & gross- they are full of good bacteria! Regular water changes will also eliminate the need for using purigen.

Ok, your ph- please test your tank with the high range test. I suspect your ph is not 7.6 but actually higher. This is not a cause for concern unless the high range test comes back at 8.8+. Goldies actually do better in higher ph ranges but a stability is the key to healthy fish. Whatever your ph may actually be (based on the high range test), do not stress over it and do not add chemicals to adjust it.

You may want to also consider rehoming the comet/koi looking fish to a happy pond. They really are not suitable to a tank this size. Comets can grow to be well over 12inches (up to 18in) and koi can grow to be 3ft- even a single fish this size would not fit in a 60g. I know you mentioned he is a baby, but its something to give serious thought to in the very near future. Rehoming this fish will also reduce the tanks bioload further which will help to maintain more stable tank conditions. Please do not hesitate to ask questions! :)
 
ArtesiaWells said:
Well, no, but I'm just reporting on how difficult our method has been and why we try and do the changes as little as possible -- it is also the reason I purchased two large HOB's for this 60-gallon as to cut down on required maintenance on our part (also why I decided to load the filters down with Seachem's Purigen, to further cut down on maintenance for getting toxins out).

No amount of filtration will keep you from doing water changes.

Water change is the only way to get the nitrates out which is killing your fish.

Just get the aqueon water changer it's a breeze.
 
Get an Aqueon Water Changer Aqueon » Aquarium Water Changer | Products

or Phython
Aquarium Maintenance & Water Quality: How to Use the Python No Spill Clean 'N Fill

Both help getting water from your tap to tank easier. This is where I'd start. Doing a complete 100% (or as close as possible to 100%) water change. Then clean your substrate to get all the poop out of it. Then clean the filters. Its pretty easy. Once you siphon the water out, then you can just connect the water changer from tap to tank and you sit back and watch TV until the tank fills up with water. Clean the filter pads/substrate and change at least 50% of the water every week.

The filter only help catch fish waste. It doesn't eliminate them from the tank. Purigen does help remove some waste from the water, but not all.

If you can take an hour or less out of your week to do all of the above, then your goldfish should live for 10+ years with a good diet.
 
Your filtration is sufficient but it doesnt eliminate the need for regular water changes. With messy goldies, the more water changes, the better! Healthy water will eliminate most of the issues you have are having with your fish right now.

Okay, so you don't think I need extra, or more, filtration? These two HOB's should do it?

As for the issues, it's really strange -- as I mentioned, two of these goldies have been with us since the tank was set up and cycled, a Red Cap Oranda and chocolate brown/gold fantail, and both are growing large and doing well. It's weird to me that the handful of others since then have been dying in stages; the only LFS that actually sells fancy goldies near us is a Petsmart, and believe it or not, this is where we get our fish and they have an amazing assortment most of the time. However, I am beginning to question whether or not the issue is coming from their tanks recently and not ours due to the regular deaths we're experiencing.

As far as my water results go, what did you make of them? Are the parameters that ridiculously off or bad? :hide:

Have you considered investing in an aqueon/python/other type of water changer? I honestly would get rid of my big tanks if I had to do water changes via the bucket method!

Believe me -- I have considered dropping the hobby and draining this tank and calling it quits more than once based on the ridiculous mess we make with every backbreaking water change, so I know what you mean. I know my local Petsmart has the Aqueon water changer thing, but I didn't think it would make the process any easier than the Top Fin one we're using now -- my wife wanted to get a new syphon anyway so I'll look into that. Thanks.

Ok, another issue that is factoring into your ammonia levels is the fact you are changing the filters on a regular basis. Everytime you do this, you are throwing away the good bacteria that process your ammonia. Just simply swish the filter cartridges in some used tank water once a week with a water change to remove debris. The filters should look brown & gross- they are full of good bacteria! Regular water changes will also eliminate the need for using purigen.

Alright, a couple of things here -- I realize that BB colonies are present on the filter cartridges, but my theory was steeped in the fact that because we have two big filters running on the tank, it was alright to change out the Aqueon cartridges routinely when they were filthy. Also, these contain activated carbon which I understand has fallen out of popularity with hobbyists in recent times, and which can reportedly leech toxins back into the water if not changed out. This is a big reason I routinely change the cartridges -- if I do the method you suggest, which is to rinse the floss cartridges in old tank water (which I do with my AquaClear 110's sponge and BioMax -- I don't replace those) and simply return them to the chamber, won't the exhausted carbon still be there in the cartridges? The cartridges do look brown and gross like you described -- but I was following Aqueon's recommendation to change these out every month or so because they get so clogged. They also claim that BB is growing on the grids the cartridges sit in within the chamber and on the "bar" by the water flow return, so because of this the cartridges themselves can be thrown out and replaced routinely.

As for the Purigen, cutting down on the water changes for the reason described above (the backbreaking bucket method) was the precise reason I decided to load the filters down with these pouches, which seems to assist with polishing and toxin removal.

Ok, your ph- please test your tank with the high range test. I suspect your ph is not 7.6 but actually higher. This is not a cause for concern unless the high range test comes back at 8.8+. Goldies actually do better in higher ph ranges but a stability is the key to healthy fish. Whatever your ph may actually be (based on the high range test), do not stress over it and do not add chemicals to adjust it.

Okay -- I will retest with the high range solution when I have a moment. The pH is not to be worried about when compared to ammonia and other parameters?

You may want to also consider rehoming the comet/koi looking fish to a happy pond. They really are not suitable to a tank this size. Comets can grow to be well over 12inches (up to 18in) and koi can grow to be 3ft- even a single fish this size would not fit in a 60g. I know you mentioned he is a baby, but its something to give serious thought to in the very near future. Rehoming this fish will also reduce the tanks bioload further which will help to maintain more stable tank conditions. Please do not hesitate to ask questions! :)

Thank you very much for your ongoing assistance -- I am uncertain if this goldie is a comet or koi (even as a baby) as he was being sold amongst the other small goldfish at the store, but it was his striking dark orange and black coloring that grabbed us when we saw him. At any rate, I don't think he is going to last much longer anyway based on his behavior and I don't have a pond to transfer him to, so we're trying to nurse him along with improving water quality, feeding him cooked frozen peas, etc.; the issue could very well be that he is a comet or koi and this aquarium setting just wasn't right for him from the beginning, thus leading to his death; this seems to be a far-fetched theory though...
 
No amount of filtration will keep you from doing water changes.

Water change is the only way to get the nitrates out which is killing your fish.

Just get the aqueon water changer it's a breeze.

I will look into the Aqueon changer, Shark, thanks. I know my local Petsmart carries them.

As for nitrates, do you think my levels were too high based on the test results? I am not certain if this is what's doing it; each death seemed to be caused by the dreaded swim bladder disease the goldfish get, where they begin to lose buoyancy and swell up...that seemed to be the connecting factor. That's why we began feeding cooked frozen peas (deshelled) to them.
 

I will look into them. Thanks.

Both help getting water from your tap to tank easier. This is where I'd start. Doing a complete 100% (or as close as possible to 100%) water change. Then clean your substrate to get all the poop out of it. Then clean the filters. Its pretty easy. Once you siphon the water out, then you can just connect the water changer from tap to tank and you sit back and watch TV until the tank fills up with water. Clean the filter pads/substrate and change at least 50% of the water every week.

Well, I don't think this tank needs a 100 percent change -- just yesterday, we cleared out almost 50 percent and I stripped each filter down and cleaned it thoroughly, from top to bottom. The motor assemblies, the media, everything -- so right now the filters are clean. The Aqueon 55 received two fresh cartridges, but this was because I was trying to clear out some Seachem Clarity I put in the tank a couple of days ago; the pads were filthy brown because of this. I'm still hazy on the maintenance schedule and procedure for these two different HOB's I have, but that's a story for another thread (when the Aqueon's cartridges should be changed or rinsed, etc.).

The filter only help catch fish waste. It doesn't eliminate them from the tank. Purigen does help remove some waste from the water, but not all.

The filters don't eliminate fish waste from the tank...at all? :huh:

If you can take an hour or less out of your week to do all of the above, then your goldfish should live for 10+ years with a good diet.

While I suspect 50% changes weekly may be a bit excessive, what do you recommend in terms of diet being that you mentioned it? Right now, we feed them Aqueon flakes with occasional treats of Tetra Goldfish Crisps, which they tend to have trouble digesting compared to the flakes. Occasionally we will feed cooked frozen peas.
 
Ill try to hit everything here but if I miss something, let me know!

In respect to the water changer, what will save you the most effort is the ability to hook it up to a faucet somewhere. Extentions can be purchased for hoses if one is not long enough to reach a sink. You will most likely need to purchase an adapter to attach the hose to the faucet. Most big home improvement stores carry them for $10-15.

In respect to changing filters, anytime this is done, it can upset the balance in your tank. Its simply not necessary. The amount of carbon in the garbage aqueon filter cartridges is almost nothing (i have 3 aqueons). The theory that old carbon leeches chemicals back into a tank is debatable. Although I do not have documentation in front of me to provide at the moment, I believe science has proved that it requires a drastic swing in ph before old carbon will leech anything back into a tank. A drastic drop in ph would likely kill any fish present long before a leeched chemical would so it really is not anything to be overly concerned about. The amount of filtration you have is sufficent.

A big water change right now will drop your ammonia & nitrates (which are not awful but not ideal) and give your tank better numbers as well as remove dissolved solids & restore buffers. You may want to double check your nitrate test results if you have not used the test in awhile- the bottles really need to be shaken well & banged on a hard surface for a few minutes before testing to ensure accurate results.

Ok, the symptoms you are describing initially sound like swimbladder issues (bouyancy problems) which can be directly related to water conditions and diet. Healthy water & good diet go a long way to helping limit SB issues for fancies, but unfortunately, they are very prone to SB issues due to their physical design. Swelling, however, is a symptom called dropsy. Dropsy is not a disease itself but a indicator of a major problem. Dropsy can be caused by poor water conditions, an internal bacterial infection, an internal parasite issue, or a virus (among other possible causes or combos of causes). Its basically systemic organ failure (mainly the kidneys and/or liver) and the fish is no longer able to process fluids. Its almost always fatal unless you have access to an aquatic vet who would be able to offer possible treatments.

I am very sorry you are having such issues with your fish! Unfortunately, the quality of goldfish from chain stores generally is not the best. If you want to consider purchasing well bred, good quality fish at some point in the future, I can point you in the right direction (they are not cheap....). I hope this information has helped some! Once again, dont hesitate to ask questions! :)
 
Ill try to hit everything here but if I miss something, let me know!

First of all, jlk, let me say thank you very, very much for your ongoing assistance -- it is greatly appreciated as I try and figure all this out. (y)

In respect to the water changer, what will save you the most effort is the ability to hook it up to a faucet somewhere. Extentions can be purchased for hoses if one is not long enough to reach a sink. You will most likely need to purchase an adapter to attach the hose to the faucet. Most big home improvement stores carry them for $10-15.

Sounds like it's gotta be better than what we're doing now! I will definitely look into the Aqueon changer at Petsmart...thanks.

In respect to changing filters, anytime this is done, it can upset the balance in your tank. Its simply not necessary. The amount of carbon in the garbage aqueon filter cartridges is almost nothing (i have 3 aqueons).

Which Aqueons do you have? Mine is a QuietFlow 55, which was the largest one they made at the time (they more recently launced a "55/75" model that is supposed to be more powerful). Why do you say the Aqueon's cartridges are "garbage" though? What don't you like about them? Also, when you say "it's simply not necessary" to throw away the old cartridges and change them out (which I assume is what you meant), what do you mean by that specifically? In other words, the carbon/floss cartridges can simply fill up to where they're disgustingly brown and loaded with junk and then rinsed out in a bucket of old tank water in a later water change? This can continue to be done routinely -- without buying new cartridges?

I understand that BB colonies are growing on the floss and in the cartridge, but Aqueon claims that the bio grid plastic blue things the cartridges slip into are the areas in which this bacteria live, and that it's okay to throw away the cartridges so long as the bio grids aren't rinsed or disturbed -- I totally get the theory that these filter manufacturers are trying to make money by getting people to buy the floss cartridges all the time, but isn't there something to be said about the fact that these cartridges get really, really nasty with tank debris and would be better off just being changed before the water in the filter overruns the return because the cartridges are so stuffed up?

I suppose, in essence, what I'm asking is, isn't there enough BB on all the other surfaces of my tank -- the gravel substrate, the decor, the other filter parts plus all the materials inside my second AquaClear filter -- that I don't have to worry about throwing away colonies residing on the Aqueon filter cartridges? Now, with regard to the AquaClear 110 filter -- in that case, I do not throw away the sponge block at the bottom of the media basket every time it gets dirty...that I always rinse out with tank water from a water change or fill a bucket with dechlorinated tap water and rinse (same with the BioMax rings)...are you saying I should be treating the Aqueon filter cartridges the same way?

The theory that old carbon leeches chemicals back into a tank is debatable. Although I do not have documentation in front of me to provide at the moment, I believe science has proved that it requires a drastic swing in ph before old carbon will leech anything back into a tank. A drastic drop in ph would likely kill any fish present long before a leeched chemical would so it really is not anything to be overly concerned about. The amount of filtration you have is sufficent.

Thank you.

A big water change right now will drop your ammonia & nitrates (which are not awful but not ideal) and give your tank better numbers as well as remove dissolved solids & restore buffers. You may want to double check your nitrate test results if you have not used the test in awhile- the bottles really need to be shaken well & banged on a hard surface for a few minutes before testing to ensure accurate results.

Well, those results are what I got before we did the 40% water change; we did a 40 or so percent change after I took those readings, and I have since added three new packs of Purigen to the two filters (one in the Aqueon and two in the AquaClear just above the sponge media); I am hoping this gets my water looking, smelling and behaving better. I definitely follow the directions for the API tests, especially the nitrate test, and shake well for the 30 or 60 seconds, whatever it may be...(y)

Ok, the symptoms you are describing initially sound like swimbladder issues (bouyancy problems) which can be directly related to water conditions and diet. Healthy water & good diet go a long way to helping limit SB issues for fancies, but unfortunately, they are very prone to SB issues due to their physical design.

Yes, I'm beginning to suspect that with a lot of the goldies we have lost -- six in total now; we just lost the comet/koi-looking one, "Cosmo," last night -- the issue has been their body designs; however, they receive a daily diet of Aqueon flakes with occasional Tetra Goldfish Crisps...I was feeding the Tetra Sinking Goldfish Pellets, but they don't seem to do well with those...there's almost a state of shock the fish go into as if they can't digest these things, so I stopped feeding those and keep them pretty much strictly on flakes. The thing is, when they appear to exhibit digestion problems, we immediately begin feeding the cooked frozen peas, yet this hasn't seemed to be able to save any of the previous goldies we have lost. I am beginning to suspect the stock of fantails my local Petsmart is getting in and how healthy/hearty they really are. The problem is, there is nowhere else to buy goldfish in my area, and what's even more head-scratching is the fact that two of the fancies we bought at Petsmart some two and a half years ago after we first set up the tank -- a Red Cap Oranda and chocolate brown/gold forktail -- are doing extremely well and growing seemingly every day, boasting great tail definition and healthy looking colors and scales. Meanwhile, other goldies we introduce to the tank -- mainly young, small ones -- die within a month's time.

Swelling, however, is a symptom called dropsy. Dropsy is not a disease itself but a indicator of a major problem. Dropsy can be caused by poor water conditions, an internal bacterial infection, an internal parasite issue, or a virus (among other possible causes or combos of causes). Its basically systemic organ failure (mainly the kidneys and/or liver) and the fish is no longer able to process fluids. Its almost always fatal unless you have access to an aquatic vet who would be able to offer possible treatments.

I've heard of dropsy; I don't actually think that's what our fish incurred...but I'm not 100 percent sure.

I am very sorry you are having such issues with your fish! Unfortunately, the quality of goldfish from chain stores generally is not the best.

That's what I would have thought, without a doubt in my mind -- but I have to tell you, the local Petsmart we shop at has a variety of fancy goldies like I haven't seen anywhere else in my immediate surrounding area. They normally get very nice sized, beautifully colored and tailed fancies that are sometimes downright stunning to look at with their unique color blendings and jaw-dropping wen. Of course, looks can be deceiving when it comes to health -- but I have been very surprised with Petsmart's selection of these creatures every time I walk in there. The problem has been whenever we purchase small, young varieties, they die within about a month's time -- we have even suspected that perhaps these young fish haven't had a chance to properly develop their immune systems or something along those lines, and from the stress of going from the shipping to the store to the removal out of the store into our tank, the end result is simply disastrous. However, I can't explain, then, why it takes so long for them to die or why my other two that we've had for two and a half years don't die.

If you want to consider purchasing well bred, good quality fish at some point in the future, I can point you in the right direction (they are not cheap....). I hope this information has helped some! Once again, dont hesitate to ask questions! :)

I would definitely be interested in purchasing good quality fancy goldfish -- is this possible to actually receive a shipment directly to someone's home from a breeder or farm? If you could point me in the right direction with that, I would definitely be interested because as I said, there are really no stores around here that sell the fancy/fantail goldfish and if they do, they're nearly feeder-size.

Thank you for everything, and I look forward to hearing back from you!! :thanks:
 
First of all, jlk, let me say thank you very, very much for your ongoing assistance -- it is greatly appreciated as I try and figure all this out. (y)



Sounds like it's gotta be better than what we're doing now! I will definitely look into the Aqueon changer at Petsmart...thanks.



Which Aqueons do you have? Mine is a QuietFlow 55, which was the largest one they made at the time (they more recently launced a "55/75" model that is supposed to be more powerful). Why do you say the Aqueon's cartridges are "garbage" though? What don't you like about them?

I have two of the 55/75 quietflow models and another 50 & 10 quietflow models. I do like them as filters- dont get me wrong! But the cartridges are very flimsy, fall apart very quickly and do not hold up well to weekly rinses in tank water. They contain almost no carbon (when compared to other filters) and trying to remove the carbon from the flimsy filter material is an effort in futility. What is nice is theres ample 'empty space' in the filter housing- plenty of room to stuff full of sponge/filter foam! Leave your cartridges in place until they fall apart & use the empty space to add additional media in the meantime.

Also, when you say "it's simply not necessary" to throw away the old cartridges and change them out (which I assume is what you meant), what do you mean by that specifically? In other words, the carbon/floss cartridges can simply fill up to where they're disgustingly brown and loaded with junk and then rinsed out in a bucket of old tank water in a later water change?

Yes! Just rinse them once a week in some used tank water. They will never be white again! If they are becoming overwhelmed with debris every week, then this indicates you need to step up your water change schedule, consider adding more filtration and/or possibly address your stocking situation. Goldies are messy, messy fish- having ample amounts of water per fish (10-30g) and limiting stocking will also limit the waste and help keep healthy water parameters. For a 60g, four-five goldies is fully stocked.

This can continue to be done routinely -- without buying new cartridges?

Yep!!

I understand that BB colonies are growing on the floss and in the cartridge, but Aqueon claims that the bio grid plastic blue things the cartridges slip into are the areas in which this bacteria live, and that it's okay to throw away the cartridges so long as the bio grids aren't rinsed or disturbed -- I totally get the theory that these filter manufacturers are trying to make money by getting people to buy the floss cartridges all the time, but isn't there something to be said about the fact that these cartridges get really, really nasty with tank debris and would be better off just being changed before the water in the filter overruns the return because the cartridges are so stuffed up?

See my comment above.

I suppose, in essence, what I'm asking is, isn't there enough BB on all the other surfaces of my tank -- the gravel substrate, the decor, the other filter parts plus all the materials inside my second AquaClear filter -- that I don't have to worry about throwing away colonies residing on the Aqueon filter cartridges? Now, with regard to the AquaClear 110 filter -- in that case, I do not throw away the sponge block at the bottom of the media basket every time it gets dirty...that I always rinse out with tank water from a water change or fill a bucket with dechlorinated tap water and rinse (same with the BioMax rings)...are you saying I should be treating the Aqueon filter cartridges the same way?

A tank has a delicate balance and it does not take much to upset it. An overzealous gravel cleaning or filter swishing or even overcleaning the glass can upset the balance. Replacing the filter media where the largest portion of bacteria lives really can upset things and it can take awhile for the balance to be restored. With your tank stocked on the heavy side, changing the filters has resulted in ammonia now being present- you really need to preserve as much of your good bacteria as possible in the future to try to keep the status qu



Thank you.



Well, those results are what I got before we did the 40% water change; we did a 40 or so percent change after I took those readings, and I have since added three new packs of Purigen to the two filters (one in the Aqueon and two in the AquaClear just above the sponge media); I am hoping this gets my water looking, smelling and behaving better. I definitely follow the directions for the API tests, especially the nitrate test, and shake well for the 30 or 60 seconds, whatever it may be...(y)



Yes, I'm beginning to suspect that with a lot of the goldies we have lost -- six in total now; we just lost the comet/koi-looking one, "Cosmo," last night -- the issue has been their body designs; however, they receive a daily diet of Aqueon flakes with occasional Tetra Goldfish Crisps...I was feeding the Tetra Sinking Goldfish Pellets, but they don't seem to do well with those...there's almost a state of shock the fish go into as if they can't digest these things, so I stopped feeding those and keep them pretty much strictly on flakes. The thing is, when they appear to exhibit digestion problems, we immediately begin feeding the cooked frozen peas, yet this hasn't seemed to be able to save any of the previous goldies we have lost. I am beginning to suspect the stock of fantails my local Petsmart is getting in and how healthy/hearty they really are. The problem is, there is nowhere else to buy goldfish in my area, and what's even more head-scratching is the fact that two of the fancies we bought at Petsmart some two and a half years ago after we first set up the tank -- a Red Cap Oranda and chocolate brown/gold forktail -- are doing extremely well and growing seemingly every day, boasting great tail definition and healthy looking colors and scales. Meanwhile, other goldies we introduce to the tank -- mainly young, small ones -- die within a month's time.



I've heard of dropsy; I don't actually think that's what our fish incurred...but I'm not 100 percent sure.



That's what I would have thought, without a doubt in my mind -- but I have to tell you, the local Petsmart we shop at has a variety of fancy goldies like I haven't seen anywhere else in my immediate surrounding area. They normally get very nice sized, beautifully colored and tailed fancies that are sometimes downright stunning to look at with their unique color blendings and jaw-dropping wen. Of course, looks can be deceiving when it comes to health -- but I have been very surprised with Petsmart's selection of these creatures every time I walk in there. The problem has been whenever we purchase small, young varieties, they die within about a month's time -- we have even suspected that perhaps these young fish haven't had a chance to properly develop their immune systems or something along those lines, and from the stress of going from the shipping to the store to the removal out of the store into our tank, the end result is simply disastrous. However, I can't explain, then, why it takes so long for them to die or why my other two that we've had for two and a half years don't die.



I would definitely be interested in purchasing good quality fancy goldfish -- is this possible to actually receive a shipment directly to someone's home from a breeder or farm? If you could point me in the right direction with that, I would definitely be interested because as I said, there are really no stores around here that sell the fancy/fantail goldfish and if they do, they're nearly feeder-size.

Thank you for everything, and I look forward to hearing back from you!! :thanks:


I need to get my little girl to bed but Ill finish addressing the rest of your concerns in a bit! Hope this so far has helped!!
 
I have two of the 55/75
quietflow models and another 50 & 10 quietflow models.



How many tanks do you have???!!! :eek:

Do you run the standard cartridges on them?


I do like them as filters- dont get me wrong! But the cartridges are very flimsy, fall apart very quickly and do not hold up well to weekly rinses in tank water. They contain almost no carbon (when compared to other filters) and trying to remove the carbon from the flimsy filter material is an effort in futility. What is nice is theres ample 'empty space' in the filter housing- plenty of room to stuff full of sponge/filter foam! Leave your cartridges in place until they fall apart & use the empty space to add additional media
in the meantime.



Indeed, I'm aware of that space to the left of the two cartridges -- that empty area in the filter box where the water is pulled up from the intake pipe. That's where I drop my 100ml bag of Puriegn in the QuietFlow 55. ;)

But here's the thing -- are you sure these cartridges can be used over and over again with just rinsing? They don't really need to be changed until they're falling apart (like the AquaClear 110's sponge)? I mean, mine get really nasty-looking after about a month of use.

Yes! Just rinse them once a week in some used tank water. They will never be white again! If they are becoming overwhelmed with debris every week, then this indicates you need to step up your water change schedule, consider adding more filtration and/or possibly address your stocking situation. Goldies are messy, messy fish- having ample amounts of water per fish (10-30g) and limiting stocking will also limit the waste and help keep healthy water parameters. For a 60g, four-five goldies is fully stocked.


Indeed, I figured they would never be white again -- like the AquaClear's sponge; it is now permanently beige in color, no matter how many times or thoroughly I rinse it. As for the stocking, right now we have four goldies in there, as we lost the fifth last night (the comet-koi looking one). Here's my thought, though: Is four to five really the max stocking for a 60 gallon? I mean, two of the goldies -- a baby Red Cap and a Black Moor -- are really small, so would adding more of this size really overstress the bioload? Even though there are "only" four fish in the 60-gallon, it doesn't look or appear "full"...does this not matter when considering bioload conditions?


A tank has a delicate balance and it does not take much to upset it. An overzealous gravel cleaning or filter swishing or even overcleaning the glass can upset the balance. Replacing the filter media where the largest portion of bacteria lives really can upset things and it can take awhile for the balance to be restored. With your tank stocked on the heavy side, changing the filters has resulted in ammonia now being present- you really need to preserve as much of your good bacteria as possible in the future to try to keep the status quo


I see; but how do I know, for sure, if it was throwing out the filter cartridges that caused the slight ammonia spike? And are the cardridges really the "largest porition" where the bacteria reside? I thought those pads were there to clean and polish the water, catching unwanted debris before it goes back into the tank...are they there for just bacteria seeding? Aqueon claims there are other areas specifically on these filters where the bacteria grow -- the blue bio grids, that bio bar before the water return, etc. Do you not believe that? To be honest, from the very beginning of taking readings in this tank, we have never had a 0 ammonia reading -- ever. I was told that this could be because we are keeping goldfish and that number will never read zero with this species; do you have a feeling this is because I change our Aqueon filter cartridges every month or so?

I need to get my little girl to bed but Ill finish addressing the rest of your concerns in a bit! Hope this so far has helped!!

I indeed look forward to your continued thoughts -- and yes, this has helped tremendously so far; I hope these are the reasons I'm experiencing the fish death and poor water quality. Thank you, again. (y)
 
ning to suspect that with a lot of the goldies we have lost -- six in total now; we just lost the comet/koi-looking one, "Cosmo," last night -- the issue has been their body designs; however, they receive a daily diet of Aqueon flakes with occasional Tetra Goldfish Crisps...I was feeding the Tetra Sinking Goldfish Pellets, but they don't seem to do well with those...there's almost a state of shock the fish go into as if they can't digest these things, so I stopped feeding those and keep them pretty much strictly on flakes. The thing is, when they appear to exhibit digestion problems, we immediately begin feeding the cooked frozen peas, yet this hasn't seemed to be able to save any of the previous goldies we have lost. I am beginning to suspect the stock of fantails my local Petsmart is getting in and how healthy/hearty they really are. The problem is, there is nowhere else to buy goldfish in my area, and what's even more head-scratching is the fact that two of the fancies we bought at Petsmart some two and a half years ago after we first set up the tank -- a Red Cap Oranda and chocolate brown/gold forktail -- are doing extremely well and growing seemingly every day, boasting great tail definition and healthy looking colors and scales. Meanwhile, other goldies we introduce to the tank -- mainly young, small ones -- die within a month's time.

I think you will have alot less issues once you improve your water change schedule and diet. The young fish are going to be more suseptible to poor water conditions in addition to possibily having disease issues that manifest themselves once they are in poor conditions. You need to do a big overhaul in diet though. Switch to a quality sinking goldfish pellet such as Hikari, NLS or Pro-Gold and start offering daily plain cooked veggies (yes, daily!). Fruits can be offered as well 2-3x a week. If you have fish that have buoyancy issues right now, skip this altogether and switch directly to homemade gel foods in addition to daily veggies. You can check on The GAB (goldfish and aquarium board) for great gelfood recipes. Goldfish do not have 'true' stomaches to store food and do much better with small, frequent meals spread out through the day (they are grazers). Veggies do not count as a meal. For more info on how much exactly they need to eat, check out this link (they need alot more food than one realizes): Feeding Guide - Site for Goldfish Keepers



I've heard of dropsy; I don't actually think that's what our fish incurred...but I'm not 100 percent sure.

Fish swelling up and dying are classic symptoms of organ failure. Remember, dropsy is not a disease itself but a symptom of disease/water issue.

That's what I would have thought, without a doubt in my mind -- but I have to tell you, the local Petsmart we shop at has a variety of fancy goldies like I haven't seen anywhere else in my immediate surrounding area. They normally get very nice sized, beautifully colored and tailed fancies that are sometimes downright stunning to look at with their unique color blendings and jaw-dropping wen. Of course, looks can be deceiving when it comes to health -- but I have been very surprised with Petsmart's selection of these creatures every time I walk in there. The problem has been whenever we purchase small, young varieties, they die within about a month's time -- we have even suspected that perhaps these young fish haven't had a chance to properly develop their immune systems or something along those lines, and from the stress of going from the shipping to the store to the removal out of the store into our tank, the end result is simply disastrous. However, I can't explain, then, why it takes so long for them to die or why my other two that we've had for two and a half years don't die.

Your older fish have adapted to the poor water conditions. The new fish have not and your likely having spikes in toxins every time you add a new fish as well further complicating water quality issues. You mentioned that your having issues with your tank 'smelling bad'- a tank should not have any bad odors and this is a further indicator that something is very amiss. To give you an idea of how much water changes are needed, serious fancy fanatics & breeders change 40-100% of their water daily to maintain optimum conditions for their fish. While this is not practical for most of us hobbiests, the more frequently you can do big water changes, the better & healthier your fish will be.



I would definitely be interested in purchasing good quality fancy goldfish -- is this possible to actually receive a shipment directly to someone's home from a breeder or farm? If you could point me in the right direction with that, I would definitely be interested because as I said, there are really no stores around here that sell the fancy/fantail goldfish and if they do, they're nearly feeder-size.

Yes, it is! As I mentioned earlier, they are not cheap and shipping fees are pricey. You can check out The Goldfish Connection (they have a live auction starting thurs eve- sun eve weekly) & RainGarden Goldfish to start. Do not purchase fish from Goldfish.net. Theres also buygoldfishonline.com which has a website as well as sells on ebay although the pics are 'stock' pics and not exactly what you may be purchasing. I have not purchased from them but I know others that have been happy with their fish. This will be enough for you to browse and have an idea of the prices. Ok, Ill check your other post to see what else hasnt been addressed! :)

Thank you for everything, and I look forward to hearing back from you!! :thanks:[/QUOTE]
 
I think you will have alot less issues once you improve your water change schedule and diet. The young fish are going to be more suseptible to poor water conditions in addition to possibily having disease issues that manifest themselves once they are in poor conditions.

I suspected that the young fish may be a factor here, and that, as you mention below, the older growing ones have adapted to the water quality. However, with so much filtration, oxygen and constant restocking of multiple overkill loads of Purigen in our tank, I can't imagine our water was so terrible at any given time; I just don't know anymore.

You need to do a big overhaul in diet though. Switch to a quality sinking goldfish pellet such as Hikari, NLS or Pro-Gold and start offering daily plain cooked veggies (yes, daily!). Fruits can be offered as well 2-3x a week. If you have fish that have buoyancy issues right now, skip this altogether and switch directly to homemade gel foods in addition to daily veggies. You can check on The GAB (goldfish and aquarium board) for great gelfood recipes. Goldfish do not have 'true' stomaches to store food and do much better with small, frequent meals spread out through the day (they are grazers). Veggies do not count as a meal. For more info on how much exactly they need to eat, check out this link (they need alot more food than one realizes): Feeding Guide - Site for Goldfish Keepers

Okay, a couple of things here. While I will look into the premium sinking foods you mentioned (my local Petsmart doesn't carry the Hikari Goldfish foods, only Chichlid foods), I'm definitely not at the hobbyist level that would allow me to engage in daily food preparation from scratch for these fish, neither would my wife be (and she's a cooker!). So, preparing food from them for scratch is out of the question on a daily basis; we already deal with a very sick dog who has diabetes and seizures and who takes 17 pills a day right now, so there's no way we could care for the fish with the same kind of passion (as much as I love them).

As for the schedule, I was constantly told that goldfish don't need to eat that much at all -- and that skipping their feedings would help not only their health but the biosystem cleanliness of the tank. You're saying they need frequent feedings? I will check out the link you provided in the meantime; thanks.

Your older fish have adapted to the poor water conditions. The new fish have not and your likely having spikes in toxins every time you add a new fish as well further complicating water quality issues.

So you would not recommend adding a fifth fish any time soon to the stock of the tank? I only have four in there now, two of which are a baby Black Moor and a baby Red Cap...

You mentioned that your having issues with your tank 'smelling bad'- a tank should not have any bad odors and this is a further indicator that something is very amiss.

Since doing the 40 or so percent water change a couple of days ago and adding the three 100ml bags of Purigen to the filters, the water is back to smelling somewhat "earthy" and healthy -- and it's beginning to get clear again, with the fish looking and acting better.

To give you an idea of how much water changes are needed, serious fancy fanatics & breeders change 40-100% of their water daily to maintain optimum conditions for their fish. While this is not practical for most of us hobbiests, the more frequently you can do big water changes, the better & healthier your fish will be.

I understand; however, yes, those kinds of changes described are not going to be happening in our tank daily.

Yes, it is! As I mentioned earlier, they are not cheap and shipping fees are pricey. You can check out The Goldfish Connection (they have a live auction starting thurs eve- sun eve weekly) & RainGarden Goldfish to start. Do not purchase fish from Goldfish.net. Theres also buygoldfishonline.com which has a website as well as sells on ebay although the pics are 'stock' pics and not exactly what you may be purchasing. I have not purchased from them but I know others that have been happy with their fish. This will be enough for you to browse and have an idea of the prices. Ok, Ill check your other post to see what else hasnt been addressed! :)

Thank you so much for those resources -- I checked out a few of them and indeed their fish are gorgeous and exactly what we were looking for! While right now I am not sure if we have $80 to $100 to spend on one fish, this is something we were definitely interested in exploring because we have no hobbyist oriented goldfish shops anywhere near us. Thank you so much for that info!! :thanks:
 
If making homemade food is not feasible (its actually ALOT simpler than it sounds!), atleast look into purchasing them some quality food. Hikari (saki or lionhead) and NLS are available on amazon & ebay as well as numerous other retailers. Add daily plain cooked veggies as well.

In respect to adding another fish, you have to keep in mind the fish you have will grow. A full grown moor can reach a foot in length and almost as big around as a coffee can- a 60g tank would be fully stocked with just a single full grown moor. Granted, this is not the norm but an exception based on the fish having ample water and a good diet from babyhood. If you want to keep the water changes to once a week, stock less fish to avoid water quality problems. Hope this helps! :)
 
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