bacterial bloom and high ammonia

[abfab]

I have a 20g tank with 2 ryukins. Until recently everything was fine, except that I was a negligent in changing the filter for a few months. As a result, there was brown stuff (mulm?) all over the it (dense floss cartridge) and the holes in stationary filter were clogged with it too. I made the mistake of giving it a thorough cleaning and a changing the cartridge during a water change. It looks this caused the tank to start cycling. I tried soaking the old filter in water as I read that adding some mulm/bacteria back in would speed up the process, but it didn't seem to work. When I tested the water, I now have high ammonia 8.0 and low ph 6.0. NO2 and NO3 are zero.

After a couple of days the water turned cloudy white. I bought Ammo-lock and have been adding 10ml every other day for the past week as per the bottle. I've also been doing a 25% water change 2-3 times a week. i also added in some bio-support that i had left over from when I initially set up the tank a few years ago.

I am still feeding them twice a day - pellets in the morning and flakes in the afternoon (trying to use up my stock). The fish seem to be behaving normally.

How long can I expect this to continue? Is there anything else I should be doing?

 

[eco23]

I have a 20g tank with 2 ryukins. Until recently everything was fine, except that I was a negligent in changing the filter for a few months. As a result, there was brown stuff (mulm?) all over the it (dense floss cartridge) and the holes in stationary filter were clogged with it too. I made the mistake of giving it a thorough cleaning and a changing the cartridge during a water change. It looks this caused the tank to start cycling. I tried soaking the old filter in water as I read that adding some mulm/bacteria back in would speed up the process, but it didn't seem to work. When I tested the water, I now have high ammonia 8.0 and low ph 6.0. NO2 and NO3 are zero.

After a couple of days the water turned cloudy white. I bought Ammo-lock and have been adding 10ml every other day for the past week as per the bottle. I've also been doing a 25% water change 2-3 times a week. i also added in some bio-support that i had left over from when I initially set up the tank a few years ago.

I am still feeding them twice a day - pellets in the morning and flakes in the afternoon (trying to use up my stock). The fish seem to be behaving normally.

How long can I expect this to continue? Is there anything else I should be doing?

First, I'd ask what type of test kit are you using? If it's strips, go out and get an API master test kit (liquids). If youre using the API already, make sure its not expired and youre doing the tests correctly (shaking long enough, etc...) Something seems funny with the tests. You're right that replacing / cleaning the filters was a bad idea, but if the tank has been up and running for a long time, I can't imagine it reverted you to an uncycled tank, because you should have colonies of bacteria on all of the tank surfaces that should handle at least some of the bio load.

Was the tank cycled initially? How did you cycle it? The stress zyme and bacteria in a bottle products are considered 99% useless by most members here.

If your numbers are correct, you need to get the ammonia down ASAP! I can't begin to explain how toxic 8ppm of ammo is. Even if the fish are surviving, they're suffering from ammo poisoning and will have burnt and scarred gills. I'd do 2 back to back 75% pwc's, followed by daily 50% ones to keep that number much lower.

It is very important you are using a dechlorinator like Prime during the pwc's. In fact, Prime can be used up to 5x the normal dose in an emergency situation...and I'd say 8ppm of ammo qualifies as an emergency situation.

When you recheck everything, post back to the thread and we'll take it from there.

 

[abfab]

I have the API master kit. The levels were fine when a tested a couple of weeks prior, so i doubt its suddenly gone bad.

I use water conditioner with every water change. I wasn't sure if using more was harmful, but will add more.

My tank was set up 3-4 years ago. At that time I added fish too early resulting in high ammonia. I was advised to do large daily water changes daily but after a couple of weeks nothing improved. My fish store told me to stop doing that because the large water changes were interferring with the cycling process. I was told that using the ammo-lock converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form and therefore protect the fish, but still show high ammonia levels when tested. Soon after taking that advise everything fell into line. For that reason I've been doing smaller water changes this time. The ammonia seems to have gone up in the last day or so, perhaps its spiking and will begin to drop? Maybe I need to wait longer?? If I start doing large water changes as advised, won't that just cause a temporary drop in ammonia but prevent the reestablishment of bacteria?

I'm confused.

 

[eco23]

I have the API master kit. The levels were fine when a tested a couple of weeks prior, so i doubt its suddenly gone bad.

I use water conditioner with every water change. I wasn't sure if using more was harmful, but will add more.

My tank was set up 3-4 years ago. At that time I added fish too early resulting in high ammonia. I was advised to do large daily water changes daily but after a couple of weeks nothing improved. My fish store told me to stop doing that because the large water changes were interferring with the cycling process. I was told that using the ammo-lock converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form and therefore protect the fish, but still show high ammonia levels when tested. Soon after taking that advise everything fell into line. For that reason I've been doing smaller water changes this time. The ammonia seems to have gone up in the last day or so, perhaps its spiking and will begin to drop? Maybe I need to wait longer?? If I start doing large water changes as advised, won't that just cause a temporary drop in ammonia but prevent the reestablishment of bacteria?

I'm confused.

The LFS told you that so you would spend money in their store. Bacteria does not live in the water, it lives in the filter and other surfaces of your tank. If your ammo is that high you need to immediately do the pwc's because right now the fish are suffering with ammonia poisoning.

 

[Shadowraven]

I'd say that you were right in what you said at first. When you thoroughly cleaned the filter out in the tap, you effectively killed any of the bacteria that were living in it. Ordinarily I wouldn't consider that a disaster, especially if it was as dirty as you described. I'd even suggest that you do that in that case.

I think that the mistake you made was you probably didn't save any of the old floss to put back into the filter to reseed it. When you did that you threw out 80-90% of your biological filter. Considering that your fish are a type of goldfish, that makes the situation worse. Goldfish are notoriously dirty fish when it comes to tank waste. Your tank should be able to overcome this faster than the initial cycle, but it may take a couple of weeks to regain the balance.

You may need to do daily PWC to keep this under control until your tank cycles again. If you need to use SeaChem Prime to save your fish use it as necessary. From my understanding it binds the ammonia so it isn't harmful to your fish, but the bacteria can still feed off of it. But I believe that it can give you false ammonia readings, then you won't know were you stand. Depend on your PWC to be the backbone of your cure, it is the more important part.

Remember that if you are going to do a complete filter change, save about 1/4 to 1/3 of the old material to reseed the new floss. As far as ammonia is concerned, NO amount of it is good.

 

[Homedog98]

I have the API master kit. The levels were fine when a tested a couple of weeks prior, so i doubt its suddenly gone bad.

I use water conditioner with every water change. I wasn't sure if using more was harmful, but will add more.

My tank was set up 3-4 years ago. At that time I added fish too early resulting in high ammonia. I was advised to do large daily water changes daily but after a couple of weeks nothing improved. My fish store told me to stop doing that because the large water changes were interferring with the cycling process. I was told that using the ammo-lock converts the ammonia to a non-toxic form and therefore protect the fish, but still show high ammonia levels when tested. Soon after taking that advise everything fell into line. For that reason I've been doing smaller water changes this time. The ammonia seems to have gone up in the last day or so, perhaps its spiking and will begin to drop? Maybe I need to wait longer?? If I start doing large water changes as advised, won't that just cause a temporary drop in ammonia but prevent the reestablishment of bacteria?

I'm confused.

Ok, let's get some stuff straight. First off, 8 ppm of ammonia is VERY toxic. Ammonia lock DOES convert ammonia to a non-toxic form, which IS good, but it also "locks" the ammonia, preventing it from being eaten by the good bacteria, (aka nitrates). For fixing this problem, I'd suggest getting some Prime water conditioner, as it still converts ammonia to a non-toxic form, but still keeps it in a usable form for the good bacteria.

Secondly, the water changes DO NOT affect your cycle. As Eco said, very little bacteria is in the water column. The bulk of the good bacteria is in the gravel, and especially the filter. (why do you think you had such a spike AFTER you changed the filter cartridge?) in order to solve this problem, two 50% water changes a day AT LEAST will help get the ammonia down.

Third is replacing/cleaning the filter cartridge. A general rule of thumb is that you use a cartridge until it's literally falling apart. If the sludge bothers you, rinse it out in a bucket of old tank water. If you need to replace a cartridge, put the new cartridge in front of the old one for a month or so, so the bacteria has time to rehome itself.

Fourth, the LFS situation. My opinion is not to trust them. Even if they seem reliable, they still have to run a business, and aren't above giving you phony advice. This isn't always the case though. Some, especially local LFS's are very helpful, and it's just the staff they hire that don't know squat. In my opinion, it's not worth your money, or your fish to trust them. Just ask questions here, get RELIABLE answers from people you know care, and just politely ignore LFS advice, buy what you are recommended from here, and leave.

 

[abfab]

thanks for all the info! will start doing the water changes you suggest to get the ammonia down.

 

[Homedog98]

Your welcome! Keep us updated!

 

[Shadowraven]

You're welcome. I'm glad that we could help you out.

 

[abfab]

Prior to doing the water change i today i checked the stats and got the following:
NO2: 1.0
NO3: 20
PH: 6.0
Ammonia: 6.0 (approx). It was in between the 4.0 and 8.0 colours

Is that what i should be seeing given the current conditions?
When I do the water changes, should I be vaccumming the gravel as well, or just suctioning the water?

 

[eco23]

Prior to doing the water change i today i checked the stats and got the following:
NO2: 1.0
NO3: 20
PH: 6.0
Ammonia: 6.0 (approx). It was in between the 4.0 and 8.0 colours

Is that what i should be seeing given the current conditions?
When I do the water changes, should I be vaccumming the gravel as well, or just suctioning the water?

No, don't vacuum the gravel because that is where lots of the bacteria live. If your ammo is still that high you need to follow my first recommendation and get to work on those pwc's. Your fish might be alive right now, but they won't be for long. In levels of ammo that high, the ammonia is burning and scarring their gills. I recommend you go do the big pwc's right now.

 

[abfab]

i've been removing just the water. glad to know i've been doing it correctly. the stats i posted were before the water change. i checked after and it was back to zero. will keep testing to make sure i do the pwcs frequently enough.

 

[eco23]

i've been removing just the water. glad to know i've been doing it correctly. the stats i posted were before the water change. i checked after and it was back to zero. will keep testing to make sure i do the pwcs frequently enough.

Good deal. You've got the right idea...just make sure you keep on top of it.

 

[Chairman meow]

Hi, I am extremely new to this and have read everything I can, I have a 120l rank and set it all up last Thursday. I added 5 neons and all but one died. They were gasping at top of tank first. Got five more and they died all but the first survivor. Why are they dying, I have done everything I was told. Please can someone help the kids are getting upset now. Ps they all died within a few hours after initially swimming round happily then going to top of tank gasping !!!

 

[eco23]

Hi, I am extremely new to this and have read everything I can, I have a 120l rank and set it all up last Thursday. I added 5 neons and all but one died. They were gasping at top of tank first. Got five more and they died all but the first survivor. Why are they dying, I have done everything I was told. Please can someone help the kids are getting upset now. Ps they all died within a few hours after initially swimming round happily then going to top of tank gasping !!!

Did you cycle your tank?

 

[eco23]

Sorry, I just saw you set it up a couple days ago.

 

[eco23]

Since this is an existing thread...start a new thread and we'd be happy to help you there.

 

[eco23]

In the mean time, get the other fish out of there! Try to take it back to the store and we'll walk you through a fishless cycle.

 

[Dwohlge1]

@abfab

I agrees with everything everyone posted. Especially the part about using Prime to treat your water. It will help ease the stress on the fish while you continue with the pwc's.

Also I would stop feeding your fish twice a day until you get your ammo and (eventually) nitrites under control. I would feed them once a day or cut your twice daily feedings in half. Then when you get things back under control slowly go back to your current feeding schedule.

 

[eco23]

Hi, I am extremely new to this and have read everything I can, I have a 120l rank and set it all up last Thursday. I added 5 neons and all but one died. They were gasping at top of tank first. Got five more and they died all but the first survivor. Why are they dying, I have done everything I was told. Please can someone help the kids are getting upset now. Ps they all died within a few hours after initially swimming round happily then going to top of tank gasping !!!

Right now your fish are dying / suffering from ammonia poisoning. Do a major water change 75%, make sure you use a dechlorinator when you change it and find the remaining fish a new home.