Bettas in bowls, is it cruel????

[Hobgob]

For the dog thing I meant leaving it alone for days at a time coming back feeding it then leaving again

Then you shouldnt have a dog

 

[Hobgob]

Put a betta in a bowl beside one in a tank. See which one is more happier. I know when I moved my old betta into the 5gal he would explore a lot more then in the bowl. Mainly because it looked like he had nowhere to go... I also did water changes everyday and minimal feedings... I should have used sand for the substrate so it would have been easier to clean now that I think of it...

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm not looking to start an argument but.....

most people dont take care of bettas properly when they are kept in a bowl that is why it is considered cruel, because most of the time it is. Thats not to say that everyone is like that, just most. If someone was willing to keep a betta in a bowl that was large enough to give some swimming space, keep the room temperature perfect at all times, and do daily water changes then it would be fine but in reality how many people do that? i consider it cruel to keep a betta in a small bowl with no filter and no heater because it is so rare that someone actually takes care of them properly. on the other hand, bettas also do not belong in large tanks, for the reasons that everyone stated. but a small five gallon filtered and heated tank in my opinion is perfect and the bare minimum that i would recommend for the above reasons.

what you say about people not properly caring for Bettas in a bowl also applies to fish in general in a tank. Does everyone who keeps tetras keep them in a planted aquarium? Is every African Cichlid tank filled with rock and sand? Is every SA cichlid tank big enough to hold the fish? Most people don't want to keep their fish in the manner in which they originated and that's fine. That applies to Bettas as well. They can survive in other scenarios. However, what you are saying is that probably close to 75% of people who have fish tanks shouldn't because they dont take care of the fish properly.
Just food for thought

 

[Andy Sager]

Lets get real for a minute...

you guys are getting ridiculous now. dogs have been a companion to humans for years, they are just as happy being a pet as they would be if they were in the wild, if not happier! anyone who knows anything about dogs will know this, there owners and family are there pack.

But anyway how did this change from fish to dogs? you cant compare the two they have completely different needs. i believe any animal can be just as happy as a pet as long as they are being properly cared for and there needs are being met. now as for bettas i think a bowl is hardly comparably to any habitat they would live in in the wild, unless you are doing daily water changes, providing a constant stable temperature and a bowl that is even large enough for them to turn around in it is completely cruel. like i said in my last post how many people do you know that do all that with there betta? hardly any.

ALL dogs are a decendant of wolves. You can trace back every dog variety to the wolf. Today's dogs are a result of mankind's manipulation of the characteristics it wanted from a wolf and created an animal that fit it's needs. Some traits have been bred out of the genes and some not. You would never think of your pet pooch as a wolf or make it live like wolf and that's my point about Bettas. These are not the wild fish you are trying to keep. Demanding that they should be living like the wild ones is the same as keeping your pet toy whatever dog as a wolf.
What you also must realize is that most of these fish that we keep in our tanks are not wild fish and never were. They are decendants of wild fish but are so far removed from that generation that they don't miss being in the river or pond or lake. They didn't come from that. They are the manipulation of the characteristics we liked about the wild ones. If we didn't do that, there would only be 1 color of swordtails, 1 color of Angelfish, etc....
Being humane to your pets is a must if you are going to have them. I was just pointing out that Bettas in a bowl, when cared for properly, is not inhumane.
Okay... discuss

 

[GodFan]

ALL dogs are a decendant of wolves. You can trace back every dog variety to the wolf. Today's dogs are a result of mankind's manipulation of the characteristics it wanted from a wolf and created an animal that fit it's needs. Some traits have been bred out of the genes and some not. You would never think of your pet pooch as a wolf or make it live like wolf and that's my point about Bettas. These are not the wild fish you are trying to keep. Demanding that they should be living like the wild ones is the same as keeping your pet toy whatever dog as a wolf.
What you also must realize is that most of these fish that we keep in our tanks are not wild fish and never were. They are decendants of wild fish but are so far removed from that generation that they don't miss being in the river or pond or lake. They didn't come from that. They are the manipulation of the characteristics we liked about the wild ones. If we didn't do that, there would only be 1 color of swordtails, 1 color of Angelfish, etc....
Being humane to your pets is a must if you are going to have them. I was just pointing out that Bettas in a bowl, when cared for properly, is not inhumane.
Okay... discuss

Unfortunatly if you stick with your original argument then you have proved yourself wrong with this post. You were telling us about bettas living in next to nothing in the wild as justification for doing the same in captivity Also rice paddies have been enormous for thousands of ears so I dont know what rice paddies you are seeing that are tiny. Not being mean I was just saying. I looked up rice paddies to see

 

[corinne118s]

Just because theyhave space in the wild doesn't mean they use it I think is what OP means. Bettas rarely stray from their territory which is a very small area. Food for thought

 

[GodFan]

oh I agree. But if you sit on your couch all day do you want me to build a wall around it and lock you in?

 

[Andy Sager]

Just because theyhave space in the wild doesn't mean they use it I think is what OP means. Bettas rarely stray from their territory which is a very small area. Food for thought

Exactly. Thanks.
The point was that as man started playing with the Betta's physical features, it did not alter the labrynth organ that enables the fish to live in oxygen poor water just like man did not change wolves into vegetarians when they created dogs. They are all still carnivores like the wolf.

When you manipulate the gene pool, you take characteristics that you like and build on that. Some things you change, some you don't. Not having a fish live in a bowl is a personal choice. You think the fish thinks like a person. It doesn't. It thinks like a fish. As long as you care for it's needs regarding food and shelter, it's fish happy. If it wasn't, it would die much faster than they do.

 

[GodFan]

Exactly. Thanks.
The point was that as man started playing with the Betta's physical features, it did not alter the labrynth organ that enables the fish to live in oxygen poor water just like man did not change wolves into vegetarians when they created dogs. They are all still carnivores like the wolf.

When you manipulate the gene pool, you take characteristics that you like and build on that. Some things you change, some you don't. Not having a fish live in a bowl is a personal choice. You think the fish thinks like a person. It doesn't. It thinks like a fish. As long as you care for it's needs regarding food and shelter, it's fish happy. If it wasn't, it would die much faster than they do.

That is untrue simply because a goldfish can live for a year in a bowl. I think Im gonna bow out on this one though. Dont stand a chance no matter what evidence I present.

 

[calfishguy]

Same here this thread is a little out of hand and I can't get my point through

Ps I don't have a dog I don't like them I am more of a cat person myself

 

[TheCrazyFishLady]

Most people don't want to keep their fish in the manner in which they originated and that's fine.

Woah. I do not agree with this and I don't think any exotics owner in general should. I believe animals SHOULD be kept in a condition that mimics their natural habitat as well as I can provide for them. I don't get an animal unless I know I can offer them the best situation possible. I want my animals happy and healthy. When I see that someone is not providing what the animal should be in, I say something.

 

[Andy Sager]

Sorry to see you go but....

That is untrue simply because a goldfish can live for a year in a bowl. I think Im gonna bow out on this one though. Dont stand a chance no matter what evidence I present.

.. if you presented better evidence, you'd stand a better chance. You are taking random events that don't explain your end result. I just presented some facts that I know to be true and you guys took it to another level that has gotten off course.
So based on what you said, when you put a goldfish in a bowl, the clock starts and you have 1 year to enjoy your pet? My niece had a pair of comets she won at a state fair and kept them in a bowl for a while and then moved them into a 10 gal. tank. 10 years later I was feeding them for her while they were on vacation. So the time they spent in the bowl couldn't have done that much damage if they were able to still be living 10 years later. I admit I do not know how long they were in the bowl but I know they were in one for quite a while because when I first saw them, I asked how long she had had them and she said "A long time."
I seriously doubt that if those had been koi, another type of goldfish, they would have survived the bowl scenario.
You see, random events.

 

[Discusapisto]

I've breed bettas for 15 years and have collected various bettas species in Asia. And I'll I gotta say is I've successfully breed bettas of various species in small and large tanks. My most successful breeding set up was puttin two pairs in a planted 55 gallon with sponge filters set on low flow and tons of plants at the surface. Tank was kept at 80F and I had babys galore. You can keep bettas in large tanks people, just use sponge filters it's common sense really. Male bettas on the wild actually claim little pockets of water in rice paddies which the pockets are created by water oxen hoof prints. And the makes set up shop and defend these pockets while waiting for the females to come by.

 

[Gillie]

You see, most fish in today's aquarium hobby are actually man made creations of a wild breed. If there had been no manipulation by man, there would be only 1 kind of goldfish, 1 color swordtail, molly, platy or guppy, no albino fish, no long finned variations, 1 color of angelfish,no balloon fish, no colored/ painted fish, etc. I think you are getting the point. All these new "creations" are just color or fin adaptations to the wild specie. They act the same as their forefathers and foremothers did when they were swimming along the rivers, lakes or ponds or esturaries (Yes, Mollies are actually brackish water fish if you research their ancestry

This part of the first post I have a problem with, first off man is not responsible for most variants of fish only a few of many many species or forms, nature provided the genetic tools for mans exploitation. Second, The widespread distribution of certain species and those geographical locations have their own color morphs, this fact is true for cichlids including angelfish, killifish, guppies mollies and even swordtails that you claim would only be one color. If you need an example of this then look at Apistogramma agassizi whose natural range reaches across the entire country of brazil and has 23 documented WILD color forms each distinct to its river or tributary of origin. It seems to me that you are being a bit hypocritical by posting this before delving into research yourself.
As for the Bettas who wants to look at a fish in a jar? I'm sure just about everybody would agree that a small aquarium with some plants housing the Betta is more appealing, I mean if your gonna take it from one jar in the store just to put into another jar then why buy it?

 

[Jason7894561230]

You see, most fish in today's aquarium hobby are actually man made creations of a wild breed. If there had been no manipulation by man, there would be only 1 kind of goldfish, 1 color swordtail, molly, platy or guppy, no albino fish, no long finned variations, 1 color of angelfish,no balloon fish, no colored/ painted fish, etc. I think you are getting the point. All these new "creations" are just color or fin adaptations to the wild specie

I have a problem with this - First off albino is a natural occuring thing, like in humans.
Second there is more than one type of angelfish living in south america, they have not been made to look different (except long fin varieties) but yes we have enhanced their colour to make them more appealing. But we havent changed their actual patterns and colours, these are natural in the wild and more than likely in the aquarium.
So...yeah
Nice post though

 

[Jason7894561230]

This part of the first post I have a problem with, first off man is not responsible for most variants of fish only a few of many many species or forms, nature provided the genetic tools for mans exploitation. Second, The widespread distribution of certain species and those geographical locations have their own color morphs, this fact is true for cichlids including angelfish, killifish, guppies mollies and even swordtails that you claim would only be one color. If you need an example of this then look at Apistogramma agassizi whose natural range reaches across the entire country of brazil and has 23 documented WILD color forms each distinct to its river or tributary of origin. It seems to me that you are being a bit hypocritical by posting this before delving into research yourself.
As for the Bettas who wants to look at a fish in a jar? I'm sure just about everybody would agree that a small aquarium with some plants housing the Betta is more appealing, I mean if your gonna take it from one jar in the store just to put into another jar then why buy it?

got to it before me

 

[Andy Sager]

You prove my point....

I've breed bettas for 15 years and have collected various bettas species in Asia. And I'll I gotta say is I've successfully breed bettas of various species in small and large tanks. My most successful breeding set up was puttin two pairs in a planted 55 gallon with sponge filters set on low flow and tons of plants at the surface. Tank was kept at 80F and I had babys galore. You can keep bettas in large tanks people, just use sponge filters it's common sense really. Male bettas on the wild actually claim little pockets of water in rice paddies which the pockets are created by water oxen hoof prints. And the makes set up shop and defend these pockets while waiting for the females to come by.

You prove my point. You are collecting WILD specimens that don't have the long finnage and/or man made characteristics that CHANGED those wild fish into poor swimmers. They can swim up to the surface for air with no problems.
Your breeding technique also requires low to no water movement which is not that much different from what I do with no filter until the babies are a bit older and eating on their own. I've been breeding Bettas this way for over 40 years and my Mentor did it this way for 20 years before me. There must be something to it

Your point about them staying in small areas was my argument that they CAN be kept in jars without it being a cruel method. As I saw in that documentary, just because the fish has the space to swim does not mean that they want to swim the whole area.

Lucky you that you were able to collect these wild specimens You got to see first hand how these amazing fish actually live.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Andy Sager]

I see your point but...

This part of the first post I have a problem with, first off man is not responsible for most variants of fish only a few of many many species or forms, nature provided the genetic tools for mans exploitation. Second, The widespread distribution of certain species and those geographical locations have their own color morphs, this fact is true for cichlids including angelfish, killifish, guppies mollies and even swordtails that you claim would only be one color. If you need an example of this then look at Apistogramma agassizi whose natural range reaches across the entire country of brazil and has 23 documented WILD color forms each distinct to its river or tributary of origin. It seems to me that you are being a bit hypocritical by posting this before delving into research yourself.
As for the Bettas who wants to look at a fish in a jar? I'm sure just about everybody would agree that a small aquarium with some plants housing the Betta is more appealing, I mean if your gonna take it from one jar in the store just to put into another jar then why buy it?

The genetic tools are present to give the animal the ability to morph into something else. This is true. However, when a varient, let's say albinoism, comes up, that animal has a lesser chance of surviving in the wild due to this varient. The natural colors that the majority of the specie has have evolved ( or your supreme being made) to make the animal more capable of surviving in it's habitat. It's why Zebras have stripes and Lions don't. It's why some fish have eye spots on their tails and others don't.
As for color varients, lets take Angelfish, there are only 3 types of Angelfish that are caught in the wild. They are all silver or some other shade of silver (Okay all you Altum lovers, I know there's a debate as to whether an Altum is silver or tan. Either way, it's not a marble or zebra or gold, etc.) The other colors that are present in today's market are ALL from man's manipulation of the gene pool not nature's. So yes, these are man made fish. Wild Mollies and Swords are green or some shade of green. They are not red, painted, pineapple, micky mouse, sunset, etc. These are all man made colors by manipulation of the gene pool. I can walk into most any pet store and guarantee that at least 30% of the fish in the store didn't exist in the 60s and 70s. It's not because they hadn't been collected yet. It's because they hadn't been "made" yet. Look at the Parrot Cichlid. It's a triploid hybrid. How can you tell me that man didn't make that fish? A number of decades ago, fish breeders were experimenting with Gamma radiation to alter the genetic makeup of fish. You mean to tell me that the results of those tests were not man made fish? You mean the new Glo Fish is a natural occurance in all wild Zebra danios?

Color variations from different geographical locations don't make a green fish red with micky mouse ears or a silver fish koi colored. Man's manipulation of the genetic material did. Show me the river where a gold long fin Ram was collected please. So I stand by my comment, Man has "made" most of the fish we buy today or at least is breeding most of these fish.
As for Bettas in a jar, I've seen beautiful Betta setups in Brandy Snifters. What is a Brandy Snifter, basicaly a pretty jar. What is an aquarium? A jar with corners. It's all in how you look at things. The point I was making at the beginning of this post is that keeping today's variation of the wild Betta in a jar is not cruel to the animal because it's wild ancestors came from areas not much bigger than the jar and they have the ability to do it. The discussion was not Why would you keep them in a jar at home?

Finally, I have done my research on the subject. I created my own strains of fish back in the 60s. I couldn't have done that without manipulating the gene pool.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Andy Sager]

I refer you to #58

I have a problem with this - First off albino is a natural occuring thing, like in humans.
Second there is more than one type of angelfish living in south america, they have not been made to look different (except long fin varieties) but yes we have enhanced their colour to make them more appealing. But we havent changed their actual patterns and colours, these are natural in the wild and more than likely in the aquarium.
So...yeah
Nice post though

I refer you to my comment #58. Regarding Angelfish, I have yet to have a collector ship me a box of Zebra Lace angelfish, Gold Angelfish, Marble Angelfish or even Black Angelfish that were collected in the rivers of South America. It's because these fish don't exist in the wild. These color mutations are a results of man's manipulation of the fish's genes. So yes, we haven't changed the physical shape of the body of the fish (sans the fins per say) but we definitely have altered the color.
As the previous poster stated, do more research on the subject before posting (No offence )

 

[Hobgob]

The albino is nature. Look at all the wild animals. They even have albino squirrels and I am pretty sure man did make them.. And saying it wouldn't survive in the wild in not your say. Maybe it blended into the substrate better. I keep my fish as close to what I can imagine they would be in nature. Last time I was at my lfs they had 3 wild caught angel fish. One of which you could see a little faded strip.
For the poster about the bettas. He said his best tank was the 55. Lots of space. Also he didn't say he had a wild one in the 55 or that he only bred wild ones so you cant really go and say he proved your point... My friend has had some type of gold fish in a Maybe ten gallon tank. The fish is probably 6 inches and has no filter or light. Who knows the water schedule... It has been alive for 7 years. I have no idea how but does that mean everyone should do it..,