Bettas in bowls, is it cruel????

[Andy Sager]

I feel it necessary to try to explain the deal with Bettas in bowls.
I see from time to time people posting that they saw a Betta in a bowl in a pet shop and thought the pet shop was being cruel to the fish so they bought the fish and put it into their 30 or 40 or 55 gal tank so it could swim around and be free. To all those people who believe they did good by doing this, I am directing this towards you. Please pay attention

You see, most fish in today's aquarium hobby are actually man made creations of a wild breed. If there had been no manipulation by man, there would be only 1 kind of goldfish, 1 color swordtail, molly, platy or guppy, no albino fish, no long finned variations, 1 color of angelfish,no balloon fish, no colored/ painted fish, etc. I think you are getting the point. All these new "creations" are just color or fin adaptations to the wild specie. They act the same as their forefathers and foremothers did when they were swimming along the rivers, lakes or ponds or esturaries (Yes, Mollies are actually brackish water fish if you research their ancestry.)
So here's the deal with Bettas (specificly male Bettas):
Bettas in their wild state came from the Thailand area of Asia(formerly known as Siam hence the name Siamese Fighting Fish) and were short finned and lived in shallow, stagnant areas of water. The only water flow that they experienced was from the frequent rainfall which cleaned their water by replacing most of it during the storm. In order to survive this existance, however or whoever you believe is responsible for creating this fish, this fish was given or evolved a special organ called a labrynth organ which enables this fish to extract oxygen from the air in the same manner you and I do so with our lungs. So unlike other fish you might have in your aquariums like tetras or barbs or cichlids or whatever, these fish do not need the heavily oxygenated water that other fish do. That's why Bettas can live in an unfiltered bowl. But that's only half the story....
Man's manipulation of this fish besides creating new colors, also enlarged their fins. (You will not find a long finned Betta in the wild!) Since this was not a constantly swimming specie, I would venture to say that the first Betta "engineers" where not concerned that these new long fins would hurt the specie in any way. It did tho in one respect, it made it harder for the fish to swim when placed in an aquarium with fast moving water. However, I'm sure the intention was not to keep these beauties in a regular aquarium. It was to keep them in as easy a container they could find because they were being raised to fight each other. Swimming away would be a sign of weakness so these fish were not engineered to be able to get away. They were made to stay there and fight. (As cruel as that may sound.) So to bring this to today's aquarium hobby, the only thing that has changed from those newly created long finned specimen's we all now love as pets has been colors and more longer and flamboyant fin adaptations. The labrynth organ is still there and the fish is still not a big fan of or equipped for fast moving water.
So you see, the cruelty is not that the fish is in a bowl. The only cruelty is that the fish might be in dirty water. Taking them from the dirty water to put them into your fishtank, at least to me, is crueler! You are making this fish struggle to breathe because they must come to the surface to breathe. This is not an easy task with oversized fins and little control.
There have been many discussions as to the proper housing for a Betta ranging from baby food jars to 2 gal. or larger bowls. I tend to use the height of the water as a guide. If you have a long shallow tank, that's a great setup for a betta (but not many other fish.) I tend to not keep my Bettas in anything over 5-6 inches of water. If I am using a larger aquarium, I don't fill it all the way up. (For example, right now my 30 gal tank only has 5 gals. of water for my males. They are in cubicles that flush every day via a filter that's on a timer.) The key is that the smaller amount of water you use, the more frequently it will need to be changed or cleaned.
Female Bettas are a bit of a different story. They have not been changed much from their foremothers and forefathers and have finnage that can swim in deeper water. You'd still want to control the water flow.

So here's a tip for the next time you see a Betta in a bowl full of dirty water thinking the store is being cruel: Instead of buying the fish to release it into your aquarium, go up to the store manager or store owner and nicely say " I just wanted you to know that I would have bought your Bettas if they had been in clean water." That would help them know that they are not being good fish keepers and how they need to improve.

I hope I have shed a little (actually a lot of) light on the subject.

I now have to go change some water in my Betta jars......

 

[Hobgob]

With every new mutation that happens to a fish like new colours, longer fins. Etc, there is a chance for a mutation that will not help the fish right?

 

[phoenixkiller]

I agree Andy. These fish are not meant to be in 1 quart bowls, but a fast-moving 55 gallon aquarium is no more Betta-friendly. Very good post.

 

[GodFan]

I agree with you that fast moving water is not good for these fish but I think you ignored a couple of very valid points.
1) Bettas originally lived in rice paddies. Not little puddles. (Rice paddies are huge and 2-3 feet deep BTW)
2) Bettas need heated water which those cups dont provide.

I think you would agree that they deserve swimming space (low flow of course) but I think your post could benefit by adding that in very plainly and touching on the points above. This will always be a touchy subject though. I hope you dont take my reply wrong. I was just pointing out a few things

 

[bs6749]

Keeping a betta in a bowl is like someone farting in a crowded elevator...it is not advised, nor is it appreciated, and it will get you lots of dirty looks. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[GodFan]

Keeping a betta in a bowl is like someone farting in a crowded elevator...it is not advised, nor is it appreciated, and it will get you lots of dirty looks. Don't ask me how I know.

lol nice.

 

[Hobgob]

It isn't just the Labrynth organ that makes them be able to survive in a bowl. There are other lab fish. They should at least have a heater as mentioned above. Also how big were the ponds bettas were found in?

 

[GodFan]

It isn't just the Labrynth organ that makes them be able to survive in a bowl. There are other lab fish. They should at least have a heater as mentioned above. Also how big were the ponds bettas were found in?

Rice paddies are HUGE. Look up pics of rice paddies. Big and deep for such small fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

mutations

With every new mutation that happens to a fish like new colours, longer fins. Etc, there is a chance for a mutation that will not help the fish right?

Not all mutations help or hurt. Some are benign. If the fish can adapt to the mutation, there's no harm. You have to take it in the context of how the fish uses the mutation.
For example: Albinoism is a mutation. You don't find many surviving albinos out in the wild because the natural colors have evolved to help the animal survive in it's environment. Albinos stick out like a sore thumb. In a fish tank, you wouldn't be putting the preditors in it that would eat an albino fish. In this case Albinoism is benign. In the wild, it is harmful.

Hope this helps...

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect...

I agree Andy. These fish are not meant to be in 1 quart bowls, but a fast-moving 55 gallon aquarium is no more Betta-friendly. Very good post.

...These fish are meant for bowls and not meant to be in a fish tank with fast moving water. I have raised Bettas in baby food jars so the size of the jar is not the issue. It's the cleanliness of the water that is. When you put a 3" fish in a 2" diameter container, that just doesn't work. But if you put a 2" fish in a 4" diameter container, it does. It just means you'll have a lot more work changing water. That's the only reason I use bigger jars. It delays, all be it not by much, the frequency I need to change their water.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect....

I agree with you that fast moving water is not good for these fish but I think you ignored a couple of very valid points.
1) Bettas originally lived in rice paddies. Not little puddles. (Rice paddies are huge and 2-3 feet deep BTW)
2) Bettas need heated water which those cups dont provide.

I think you would agree that they deserve swimming space (low flow of course) but I think your post could benefit by adding that in very plainly and touching on the points above. This will always be a touchy subject though. I hope you dont take my reply wrong. I was just pointing out a few things

I think you are on a good point but missed by an inch or so
The rice paddies that you are talking about are a more modern version of the original wild paddies. These fish originally came from "ponds, drains, ditches and other sluggish waters" (as quoted from the Handbook of tropical aquarium fishes) throught Siam and not just paddies. The original wild rice paddies would have fallen into the sluggish waters catagory. In nature, they did not travel far from the protection of the plant life for fear of detection by wading birds and other fish eating critters. So no, they do not REQUIRE swimming space.
As for heaters, I used to have a warehouse with over 1000 bettas at any time in various stages of growth or for sale. There was not one heater in any of them. What I did do was make sure that the air temp. never went lower than 70 degrees thereby the water temps never went below 70 degrees. You were close on this point but there is more than 1 way to heat the water. For the Bettas that are in my house, I use my central air/ heat to keep them warm or cool. No tank heater necessary.
In most pet stores, the air temps never get cold enough to hurt the fish thereby not needing to heat them there either.

I realize that a Betta goes against most of what we know about taking care of fish. This is why you must learn about your fish before you buy one. It just might fool you

Hope this clears things up

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect....

Keeping a betta in a bowl is like someone farting in a crowded elevator...it is not advised, nor is it appreciated, and it will get you lots of dirty looks. Don't ask me how I know.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've got the Betta farmers in Thailand on my side tho
It is a lot more work. I'll give you that

 

[Andy Sager]

Actually...

It isn't just the Labrynth organ that makes them be able to survive in a bowl. There are other lab fish. They should at least have a heater as mentioned above. Also how big were the ponds bettas were found in?

The fact that they do not require much swimming space along with the ability to extract air via the labrynth organ IS why they can be left in a bowl. In fact, the other labrynth fish you speak of such as Gouramis can be kept in a bowl as well if the bowl gave them enough space. These fish are all bred in a multitude of containers that don't have running water or filtration systems at all.
And for some of the larger fish that use a labrynth organ or some variation of one (ie Arapeimas, Arawanas, Tarpon, etc.) if you can find a bowl big enough for them, they would be able to be kept in one.
As for the heater, please see my previous response

 

[bs6749]

Not sure I'd want to live in an elevator my entire life. I'd be pooping and peeing and the environment would be polluted all around me. Certainly if the area were larger there would be less of a concentration of this pollution. There wouldn't be anywhere for me to move, and my muscles would begin to atrophy, just as it does when astronauts/cosmonauts spend weeks/upwards of a year in space. My point is, just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. I'm sure I could fit an adult oscar in a 10g tank but I'm smart enough to know that it doesn't do anything for the health or well being of the fish.

I wouldn't brag about having Thai fish farmers on your side...they are the same ones that use testosterone to color up Microgeophagus ramirezi for quicker sale and have given that species a horrible reputation for being delicate, disease prone, and difficult to take care of. Why wouldn't it make sense for them to stuff them in jars? More space means more fish that can be stored. More fish means more money, and surely they aren't raising these fish for free. They are out to maximize profit and they know that the males will be "okay" in small jars. An adult oscar would be equally "okay" in a 10g tank.

Tell me, how many bettas do you see in small jars in the wild? Even if the water is shallow, certainly there is a higher volume of water (in addition to plants) that help minimize ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate toxicity. Small volumes of water are difficult to maintain when it comes to clean parameters.

 

[Andy Sager]

Please see...

Rice paddies are HUGE. Look up pics of rice paddies. Big and deep for such small fish.

Please refer to post #11. What you are looking at is a modern day rice paddy. This is not where the original Betta came from.

 

[RedFlame]

While you can rationalize it as many ways as you like I still do not think it is a preferred method of keeping them. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea. We are at completely different ends of the spectrum on this and no amount of quotes will change my mind just as no ones they need a heater, filtration and space will change yours.

So we will also agree to disagree.

 

[jetajockey]

I think that there are valid points brought up on both sides here. One thing that hasn't been really pointed out is there is a big difference between keeping bettas (or any fish really) in a breeding and growout setting versus keeping them as a pet in an ideal long term habitat.

 

[Andy Sager]

With all due respect....

Not sure I'd want to live in an elevator my entire life. I'd be pooping and peeing and the environment would be polluted all around me. Certainly if the area were larger there would be less of a concentration of this pollution. There wouldn't be anywhere for me to move, and my muscles would begin to atrophy, just as it does when astronauts/cosmonauts spend weeks/upwards of a year in space. My point is, just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. I'm sure I could fit an adult oscar in a 10g tank but I'm smart enough to know that it doesn't do anything for the health or well being of the fish.

I wouldn't brag about having Thai fish farmers on your side...they are the same ones that use testosterone to color up Microgeophagus ramirezi for quicker sale and have given that species a horrible reputation for being delicate, disease prone, and difficult to take care of. Why wouldn't it make sense for them to stuff them in jars? More space means more fish that can be stored. More fish means more money, and surely they aren't raising these fish for free. They are out to maximize profit and they know that the males will be "okay" in small jars. An adult oscar would be equally "okay" in a 10g tank.

Tell me, how many bettas do you see in small jars in the wild? Even if the water is shallow, certainly there is a higher volume of water (in addition to plants) that help minimize ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate toxicity. Small volumes of water are difficult to maintain when it comes to clean parameters.

I think you missed the point and the boat.
As for keeping adult Oscars in a 10 gal tank, it cannot be done longterm without damaging the fish. A Betta can be kept long term in a bowl with out damage IF you maintain the bowl correctly. The point is not how many do I see in a jar in the wild, it's how many do I see in the space a jar contains? The answer is 1 fish.
The point I was making was with the elongation of the fins the fish had become a poor swimmer. By putting them into a tank and making them swim will not create a stronger muscular fish. Shortening the fins and recreating the original structuring of the tail will give the fish the ability to swim "normally" and maintain is muscle. Without these conditions, your point is off the mark. Keep in mind, since the fish does not swim or exert a large amount of energy, it requires less food thereby reducing the waste in the bowl. Overfeeding the fish is just as bad as underfeeding the fish.
In fact, when you first cycle an aquarium, it takes almost a week before you see significant levels of ammonia no matter how large the aquarium is. A Betta bowl should be changed at least every 2 days thereby reducing the ammonia level before it really even gets started. I'm sure if you lived in an elevator and someone opened the door for you every other day, you would last longer than if you only had the door opened once a week.

As for the Thai farmers, The Betta farms I've seen just do Bettas. They actually raise and maintain the fish in better conditions than most hobbyists do. Water is changed by a brigade of people on a continuous basis so I'm not sure where you're getting your info from.

As for the delicateness of the Microgeophagus ramirezi, I've imported many wild rams from SA and they are just as delicate so I don't think you can blame the farmers on this point. It's just a delicate fish no matter what. I've also had good success with some wild ones so I'm not saying that all Rams are destined to die. It's a crap shoot if you ask me.

Lastly, I didn't create the environment that the fish originly came from. What I do know is that because of the harshness of that environment, it developed the ability to survive it. Nothing man has done to this fish has changed that ability. My Bettas in bowls are happy. I know this because they blow nests after every water change and breed frequently. I must be doing something right wouldn't you say?

Thanks for the debate

 

[absolutangel04]

Personally, I have no doubt at all that bettas CAN live in small spaces like the ones described. When I was younger and the internet was not as readily available with its plethora of information, I kept betta bowls and my fish usually did ok. They blew bubble nests and swam around. Now that I know more about this issue, I have bamboo planted in the bowls and I keep my bettas in small tanks. I agree about bettas not always being suited for fast water flow. The elaborate finnage does make them weak swimmers. I personally don't think its right to keep a betta in a 4 inch jar. As the OP has said, bettas are tough little guys. Wild populations have to survive a lot of hardship. Personally, I don't feel that my bettas SHOULD be kept in tiny jars with no swimming space. Yes, they can survive it. I do not dispute that. I am merely saying that I personally wouldn't do it. Now, to be fair, I also would not personally keep bettas in a huge tank because of the water flow issue. I have a 40g tall, and I wouldn't ever put a betta in there either because of compatibility and because of the water flow. I started a thread awhile ago and I asked people if they had experience with bettas living longer in tanks than in bowls. I have found no actual evidence that bettas in well-maintained bowls live shorter life spans than bettas in tanks do. So, survivability is not the only issue at play here for me. I am merely saying I personally have kept the fish both ways and while I certainly know they can live both ways, I think a bit of swimming room is good for them and I also see much more behavior and colors from them in my 10g tank than I ever saw from them in my bowls. I also have seen mine perk up quite a bit when kept at warmer temps, but people keep their houses at all sorts of temps so just saying bettas do or don't need a heater is a bit vague.
Of course, fish keeping by nature yields multiple points of view. Just sharing mine.

 

[Hobgob]

Not all mutations help or hurt. Some are benign. If the fish can adapt to the mutation, there's no harm. You have to take it in the context of how the fish uses the mutation.
For example: Albinoism is a mutation. You don't find many surviving albinos out in the wild because the natural colors have evolved to help the animal survive in it's environment. Albinos stick out like a sore thumb. In a fish tank, you wouldn't be putting the preditors in it that would eat an albino fish. In this case Albinoism is benign. In the wild, it is harmful.

Hope this helps...

I was trying to make a point, they could have had a mutation that makes it harder to live like the forefathers and mothers and could act differently... Also if they are found in rice paddys naturally why would you pun them in a 1 gallon bowl if they are use to so much space in the wild?