Cycling - More ?s - Ammonia, Water Vacuum, Dechlorination Timing

[Twoapennything]

I have a couple other random questions about cycling that weren't answered by the FAQs I've read here.

First, I'm not clear on whether I continue daily water changes after the ammonia level has dropped to 0.0, or if I need to do them all the way through the entire cycle. Does this depend on the chemical readings? For example, my 10 gal. tank that is cycling had levels of 0.0 ammonia, 0.50 Nitrites, 10 Nitrates. I did about a 30% water change, as I did a 50% yesterday (levels yesterday were 0.25, 1.0, and 80 respectively). Should I continue with the water changes? I'm thinking I should?

Next, is there any kind of product that sucks water out of a tank faster than the little tube vacuum I use for cleaning? It takes forever to fill the bucket - I've started scooping the water by hand with a small pitcher. This sucks less, but not much less.

Finally, when I'm refilling the tank with clean water, should I put the dechlorination product into the tank with the FIRST bucket of water, or would that be harmful to the fish, as they would get a concentrated exposure to those chemicals? Or, should the chemicals go in at the end of the fill? Is the exposure to the chlorine in the water just as bad as exposure to the dechlorination chemicals, or will fifteen to thirty minutes in untreated water be okay for the fish while I'm filling the tank?

Any replies are appreciated. Thanks!

 

[underdog5004]

Glad to see you're reading the FAQs!

I think that if the nitrite levels are within an acceptable range (couldn't tell you, I do fishless cycling), then water changes are mandatory, just keep a good eye on it. Are you using test strips or API master test kit? From what I've heard, test strips are junk, inaccurate, etc... while liquid test kits are awesome. I use API master test kit (freshwater). You could buy a large gravel vac (larger diameter tubing), or just buy a length of 1/2" (inside diameter) and fit a filter fitting onto one end of it. For these things go to a plumbing store, I got about 30' of tubing, 3 valves, 3 filter fittings, 2 "T" connections and an "L" connection for about 70 bucks. I think for your set up, you're probably looking at 1.50 for the filter fitting, and maybe 2 dollars for the tubing (it was about 75 cents per foot). I used 1/2" tubing to drain my 55g, and it drained about 25 gallons in about 10 minutes, so it's quite a bit faster than what you are using

In regards to your new water, I always add the appropriate amount of dechlorinating chemicals to the new water before I add it to the tank. If I have to haul 2 10g buckets, I put the appropriate amount of chemical to treat 10 gallons of water in each bucket.

 

[mfdrookie516]

first, yes, you want to continue water changes as needed to keep the nitrite level as low as possible. nitrite is just as harmful, if not more so, than ammonia.

next, yes there is. its called a python. but... you can get cheaper versions or build your own. it just hooks to the sink and eliminates the whole bucket brigade, and sore back

finally, here is what i do. since i dont use buckets, i just fill straight from the faucet through my python. i just put my dechlor in as i start to fill it up. i use prime, and prime is safe for fish up to 5x dosage, so putting it in before i fill is no worry for me... btw if you dont dechlor the water before putting it in the tank, make sure you add enough dechlor for the whole volume of the tank, not just what you put in

 

[Twoapennything]

Glad to see you're reading the FAQs!

They're pretty helpful, yeah.

I think that if the nitrite levels are within an acceptable range (couldn't tell you, I do fishless cycling), then water changes are mandatory, just keep a good eye on it. Are you using test strips or API master test kit? From what I've heard, test strips are junk, inaccurate, etc... while liquid test kits are awesome.

I never intended to do a cycle with fish in the aquarium, actually. My fish were in a 10 gal. aquarium, and then I bought the 40 gal. - I set up the 40 and got it going and it cycled for about a week when the ammonia levels in the 10 gal. became so dangerously high that I felt I had to move the fish in order to save their lives. The readings were 4+ with the API master test kit and the fish were all just at the top of the tank gasping for air. It's been worrisome for me, doing a cycle with fish in the tank.

So, yes, I'm using the API master test kit and not the test strips. It's a little more work obviously, but I've gotten my son interested in it and he enjoys running the tests and switching off with me on that task. Okay, this is totally dorky, but I have a fish journal, and I record the readings every day and make notes about the fishes' health and behavior and all that. Very silly!

Thank you for the advice regarding gravel vacs. I bought a large one yesterday, but it's too big. I'm going to exchange it for a medium one, but I also like the idea of making my own. I'm good at building things, so I wrote your directions down.

In regards to your new water, I always add the appropriate amount of dechlorinating chemicals to the new water before I add it to the tank. If I have to haul 2 10g buckets, I put the appropriate amount of chemical to treat 10 gallons of water in each bucket.

That makes sense and I will give that a try. Thanks again for replying!

 

[Twoapennything]

first, yes, you want to continue water changes as needed to keep the nitrite level as low as possible. nitrite is just as harmful, if not more so, than ammonia.

Will do. Why are the nitrites more damaging than the ammonia?

next, yes there is. its called a python. but... you can get cheaper versions or build your own. it just hooks to the sink and eliminates the whole bucket brigade, and sore back

Seriously, I think my spine is in the shape of a Z after all the water hauling I looked at the python yesterday at PetSmart and I don't think it's compatible with my faucet. We have a weird faucet on the kitchen sink that doesn't have the screw on mechanism. I think a medium sized self-starting vac is going to have to suffice for now. Even a medium vac will be faster than the tiny one I have now.

I also use Prime for dechlorination, etc.

 

[Guyver]

Keeping a fish journal is something I want/need to get going as well. It definitely helps, especially if you use MS Excel to keep tabs on your test measurements.

 

[underdog5004]

Will do. Why are the nitrites more damaging than the ammonia?

Seriously, I think my spine is in the shape of a Z after all the water hauling

I was going to post some half-remembered chemistry from high-school, but I decided that there were too many experts willing to call me out

Regarding the water changes, life will be a lot easier if you can just buy 20' of tubing and run it out the window to drain the tank! I've just bought a water pump to pump water out of my trash can back into the tank, so hopefully the water change process will be made much easier by this.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I was going to post some half-remembered chemistry from high-school, but I decided that there were too many experts willing to call me out

same here... i can tell you that i've heard theyre worse than ammonia (both are bad of course), but i cant tell you why. where's one of the chemistry guys when you need them

 

[Mark Hewitt]

It's my understanding that it is 'just as bad', at least you can treat it that way.

A lot of deaths with cycling come at the point where nitrites are rising, but ammonia has yet to significantly fall, so fish get a double whammy.

 

[7Enigma]

First things first.....keep doing water changes....50% a day based on your latest numbers (I personally don't have a minimum recommended ppm....if you detect it it's harming the fish....don't get lazy! ).

Without getting technical nitrIte basically works in fish the way carbon monoxide does to us humans. It prevents the fish from getting oxygen even if it's in the water in ample amounts. It is lethal in a much quicker timeframe than ammonia and levels can be much lower as well. One of the "benefits" of nitrIte poisoning over ammonia poisoning is if treated quickly it usually does not result in the permanent damage that ammonia poisoning can. Chronic nitrIte poisoning can cause organ damage/failure and compromise the immune system. That second part IMO is the most dangerous because you can finally have a cycled tank but get secondary fungal/bacterial/internal parasitic problems that can last much longer and be much more difficult to treat than ammonia/nitrIte poisoning.

Salt is commonly used when cycling with fish to combat nitrIte poisoning during the spike prior to completion of the cycle. I'll save you the science but it basically lessens the buildup of the carbon monoxide-like substance in the blood. A common recommendation is 1/2 ounce of salt per gallon of water (I would personally use 1/2 of this recommendation since you appear to be well on your way to completion, that would be a little over 1 ounce per 5 gallons), the salt being added and dissolved PRIOR to introduction to the tank. I'd also do this gradually over the course of a day or two as osmotic shock can occur. If you have live plants this can damage/kill them.

Make sure you have great aeration in the tank. If using a HOB filter drop the water level a bit so you get a waterfall effect. Stop feeding the fish for a day or two, and then only every other day until you no longer have detectable levels of ammonia/nitrIte. Fish are coldblooded and their metabolisms are MUCH slower than us, so while starving them sounds cruel, it is much better for them than being fed and harmed by toxins.

EDIT: Forgot to mention since you said you are using Prime as your dechlorinator; dose 2-3X the recommended amount. I would suggest for your tank to dose 1/2 a capful or ~2.5ml (the full cap should be 5ml if I remember correctly). Again we are looking for the lesser of evils here. While above the recommended dosage it is much safer than nitrite poisoning. Please note that you will still DETECT the nitrIte when you test with the API kit, but when the Prime is dosed the nitrIte will not be harming the fish.

HTH

 

[marina]

Hey!!! GREAT IDEA!!! I have my tank on the side of a window that faces the side of my house...I can save the trips from the living room to the kitchen carrying the old water!!! I am going to try this weekend when my pwc is due! THANKS!