Cycling Question -- Week 4

[pachuco2k]

What's up aquarium homies!! Its El Pachuco again needing some input on the current state of my tank. I have a 20 gallon tank (see pics) with 4 Zebra Danios that has existed now for 26 days. Its pH has been consistently 7.8, avg temp at 76 degrees F. I had an ammonia spike on my 14th day where it hit 3ppm after having been consistently at 1ppm through the first two weeks. The next day it was at 1ppm again. In week 3 the ammonia level started dipping below and today it measured at 0ppm for the first time. What puzzles me is that I have not had a Nitrite or Nitrate reading the entire time. I'm thinking that it could be to my Danios not putting much of a Bio-load on my system. I never add anything to the water unless I'm changing it. That when I add Bio-Safe. I added Bio-coat before I put the Danios in way back when. I don't think my tank has cycled otherwise I would get a Nitrate reading since it progressively should get larger after a cycle. I'm thinking about adding 2 more fish in there to increase the bio-load to get a reading of some sort on the bacteria side. What do you guys think? Sorry for the long post. Some of you are number purists out there so here you are!! Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks!! Whoops, I forgot to add that there is a slight cloudiness in my tank. Is that a bloom?

 

[Allivymar]

Interesting.

There was enough ammonia production to cause a decent ammonia spike, yet no nitrites/nitrates? You might want to bring a sample of water to a lfs and have it double checked. Maybe something is wrong with the other tests?

*does a little research*

Ahhh. Ok. BioSafe is an ammonia converter. It will cause false positive readings on Nessler ammonia tests. I'll just about guarantee thats the problem. What it does is convert toxic ammonia to non-toxic ammonium. Thing is, Nessler tests can't tell the difference. You need a salicyte test for that. Plus, ammonia eating bacteria don't readily chow down on the converted ammonia, which really slows down the cycle...

And yeah, sounds like a bloom. Is the cloudiness whitish or greenish?

 

[pachuco2k]

Its a white cloudiness. I've done only two water changes so far. In week 2 I did a 10% change and then a 20% change in week 3. I think in week 3 that was when the cloud appeared. The change cleared it up but it returned in about two days. That's the only time I've added the bio-safe; at the start of my tank, and during both water changes. That LFS test is a good idea. Maybe I'll do that this weekend. BTW, I have the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master test kit and a Nitrate test kit from the same company. I don't know if its a Nessler test or not. I'd have to do some research myself. Thanks!!

 

[tkos]

Don't forget that even after the cycle is down it will only produce enough bacteria to support a bioload of 4 danios. Each fish added will start teh cycle again. Can you get some bio-spira at a loacl store? It is the only proven bacteria in a bottle that works. If you can find it follow the directs and your tank will be cycled in 24 hours and ready for a full load of fish.

 

[pachuco2k]

I know. I'm only going to introduce two fish at a time and in two week intervals so that my tank can catch up. Unfortunately my LFS doesn't have Bio-Spira otherwise I'd pick some up. I just wish I could see some dang readings of bacteria. I'm going to go to the LFS to get my water tested.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

Make sure you ask the lfs what kind of test they are using, it's pretty likely they're using the same kinda test you are.

I'd reccommend ceasing use of biosafe. That way you'll get your cycle going properly, and your ammonia readings will be accurate.

 

[Kerrinne]

Ok...I'm using something called aquasafe to take the chlorine out of my water. Is that the same as biosafe? I hope not if biosafe is not good for tanks.

 

[Allivymar]

Aquasafe removes chlorine and chloramine, and neutralizes heavy metals. All good stuff and what you want a tap water conditioner to do. It doesn't touch ammonia, which is the concern with BioSafe. It does, however, also claim to "provide special ingredients that coat and protect the gills and membranes of fish". That, IMHO, a load of crap and not very useful. Just means more chemicals in your tank, and quite frankly healthy fish don't NEED to coat and protect thier membranes and gills; thats why they have slimecoats. Checkout the first paragraph here; I agree with it: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/conditioners.shtml

 

[captainGregor]

Alli, what you are saying, and bear with me here, is "do not use water conditioner that removes ammonia during cycling process." It seems perfectly reasonable to me even though I have used my Prime during cycling without thinking - that is what my LFS recommended as "best" water conditioner. Do you believe that aforementioned conditioner with ammonia remover and "supplying protective coat" could be further used after cycling or I had better write off the $5 that I spent as irrecoverable expense and have a regular chlorine-chloramine-heavy metals one?
thanks, Gregor

 

[Kerrinne]

So is there anything out there that just removes chlorine from tap water without all that other stuff?

I suppose I could just use the hose outside from the creek (the water tests on that puppy make everyone drool LOL We could bottle that stuff.) But that water would be very cold in the winter and sometimes dries up in the summer. So it would be a pain.

I just can't leave bowls of water and what not sitting around for two days for chlorine to settle. My cat will drink it, my daughter will spill it, and gnats tend to appear in my house if you leave anything liquid or food out for longer than 3 hours.

Thanks.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

There are actually a large number of tap water conditioners that remove chlorine.

What you should look for: Something that both removes chlorine AND breaks the chloramine bond.

If you have heavy metals in your tap water, you might look for something that does that as well.

I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Conditioner.

Where you want to be careful, is that these products usually then refer you to a product that will remove the ammonia (ie, ammo-lock). It isn't necessary, and in fact, can cause problems with your bacterial colonies. The ammount of ammonia that actually would get added to your tank from tap water from breaking the chloramine bond is miniscule.

 

[Allivymar]

Understand this is a personal preference, after doing some research and talking to others to get an idea of their experiences:

I only use minimal chemicals in my tank. By that I mean prefer a conditioner that dechlorinates, dechloraminates and maybe removes heavy metals and thats it. Currently I'm using Insto-Chlor which ONLY dechlorinates and dechloraminates; nothing else. Its pretty cheap, and an 8 oz bottle treats 3200 gallons (one cap treats 80g). Its by Jungle. I went thru all the tap water conditioners at the lfs and read the claims and ingredients (if they mentioned em) and chose the one that did the least but took care of what I considered important, and was the cheapest *grin*

No need to leave the water out for kitties to drink and lil girls to play in In fact, aerating water only removes chlorine; if your water supply contains chloramines they will still be in the water even after a week of sitting out. Theres some great info on chlorine/chloramines here: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/chlorine.shtml

As for conditioners that "remove ammonia", really none do. What they do is convert ammonia to ammonium, which is a non-toxic form of ammonia. Thing is, nitrifying bacteria do not munch on ammonium as readily, and it keeps the colonies from becoming a large as they might need to be and slows down the cycle. Hopefully sweets will pop in; she can give you the more technical explanation then I LOL

Lastly, I also don't like to use anything which "treats" or "prevents". If my fish are healthy, there is no reason to treat or prevent anything. If they are ill, I need something which specifically treats the disease, and not something unproven to help. Quite frankly, most of the "slime coat enhancers" actually irritate the fish mildly, causing the fish to produce more slime. Even salt has this effect and is something I don't use in my tank except once to treat ich. Others use aloe vera, which they claim helps the fish's skin like it does humans. Thing is, it does nothing expect muck up the water at high doses. Clean fresh treated water at proper temps are all they need.

You can certainly continue to use the conditioner Cap't. It won't be terribly detrimental, although it may prolong the cycle a while. I'd suggest a different conditioner once its used up tho. And do see if the lfs carries Insto-Chlor Kerrinne; I'm well pleased with it and its really economical.

 

[Allivymar]

LOL I need to type faster...there sweets is!

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

lol...

yea..i'll throw in one last chemistry note for kicks.

Another problem with "ammonia converters"...as Alli said, they convert ammonia (NH3) to what is effectively ammonium (NH4). Both of these already exist in your tank, in a careful equillibrium, that is effected by temperature and pH. In a kind of annoying little twist...your pH is also somewhat dependant on this equillibrium. So when you add a chemical that alters your ammonia levels, you can also expect a change in pH (which can stress your fish)...and just for the sake of completeness..if you attempt to alter the pH with additives, you also run the risk of an ammonia spike.

A couple more reasons to steer clear of a lot of these chemicals. My general advice....if you don't know exactly what it's doing in there...you probably shouldn't add it lol (heck, i have a degree in mathematical physics with a minor in environmental chem and i still don't know what a lot of junk they sell does!!)

 

[captainGregor]

Well, my BS in electical engineering and BS in Computer Science do not help me with the fishes, although general knowledge of chemistry does. My wife is a PhD but no chemist :-( Fortunately friend of mine is a PhD in chemistry and he helps me with it when I need it. All I do is make electrical things work and computer programs run I really really hope that this new hobby will be successfull!!! It is great and peaceful.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

lol...i guess the bottom line for me is...I'd rather come home and enjoy my fish...not think about chemical equillibriums LOL....honestly, I don't fuss with any of it unless I'm helping people out on here

 

[Allivymar]

*grin* And your "fussing" is greatly appreciated sweets!

 

[captainGregor]

yes it is!!!

 

[pachuco2k]

Hmmm, this turned out to be a more interesting than I thought it would be. So my question is this. During each water change I maybe have added no more than 14 drops of Bio-Safe combined. How long would Bio-Safe continue to exist after an application? That sounds to much like a math test word problem. But it has been a full 8 days since my last addition of Bio-safe. When will the Bio-Safe completely break down? The test kit I am using is a Nessler kit anf the back of my bio-safe states "use of kits with Nessler reagents will result in a false POSITIVE [emphasis added] for ammonia." My ammonia readings have now been "0" two days in a row for the very first time. I have not yet had my LFS test my water but I plan on doing so tomorrow. I'll check back in then. Thanks for the input. I have learmed a great deal today!

 

[jsoong]

Don't know the life of biosafe. However, I emailed Prime a while back & Seachem claims that Prime will disappear from water in 24 Hrs. Therefore Cap't, you don't have to worry about continuing using Prime.